<p>Trying to make a decision here. S seeking great undergrad experience, likes to get to know professors, very involved in music, instrumental and vocal, loves college sports and big into school spirit and thinking about joining the band. GC seems to be pushing for Dartmouth. It looks like they have similar levels of alumni support/network.</p>
<p>S is accepted to honors at ND, would like to do study abroad, internships. There is that Ivy thing that seems to make a big difference to many. There were a couple of murders in South Bend the last time we visited. Hanover is pretty safe and quaint, also isolated. Like the idea of residential houses at ND better than the frat scene at D but he is not a drinker and will have to deal with the a new level of partying at either place. Academics are most important to him but extracurriculars and finding some fun people to share next four years with is going to make the experience. Any advice is appreciated.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has such a small undergrad population. I personally like slightly larger schools like ND. There’s just more people to meet. </p>
<p>Both are excellent schools and offer wonderful college experiences. At the same time, they are very different. I note that Mrspepper did not mention “Catholic character” or some similar concept. That may be the most distinguishing factor. Both have excellent academics, both have extensive international programs, both can offer her son a memorable and valuable 4 years. </p>
<p>As to murders in South Bend, there is a rough side of the old rust-belt town, but campus and the immediate surroundings are generally safe. Some of the off-campus housing well south of Angela gets a bit sketchy. All people should use good sense about when, where and how they move around. It would be ideal if a young woman could always walk home alone, safely down dark streets / paths at 2am. Regrettably, that is not advisable in Hanover, South Bend, Harvard or South Beach.</p>
<p>Our son was accepted at both ND and Dartmouth. He chose ND and is so happy he did. He is in the Honors program and is studying abroad this semester in a program that is an intercollegiate consortium of Ivy schools and other elite LAC. He feels his education at ND can easily compare to the other students attending this program and he has the added benefit of the Catholic character of ND. The sense of community at ND is special and that is why when you are accepted the letter says “Welcome Home!” Our daughter is so impressed with the experience her brother has had at ND she herself will be attending next year, turning down many large scholarships she was awarded from other schools. </p>
<p>I really wouldn’t worry about the safety aspect. You have to keep your wits about you anywhere. My son never even feels the need to go off campus because everything he needs is there. He barely even goes to Eddy St. Commons.</p>
<p>I forgot…our son is not a drinker either and he has found a great group of guys to hang out with. There are those who party (believe me, I hear them in the background when we Skype) at both schools but at least there are parietals at ND which keeps somewhat of a time limit on the ragers. He thinks parietals are great!</p>
<p>I know nothing about Dartmouth, but my son loves ND. He’s had a great group of friends in the dorm from day 1, he enjoys and partakes in the social life, he also thinks parietals are great!</p>
<p>I chose ND over Dartmouth and am so happy that I did. I also did honors program and studied abroad during the summer while I was a student. The lack of frats at ND was definitely a plus for me. I didn’t drink in high school or immediately on starting college and I felt like the residential life at ND immediately offered that sense of community without any of the hazing, exclusivity, or pressure to drink that frats/sororities often have. And later, when I decided I did want to attend parties, I did so without having to be a member of any particular group. The sense of community applies beyond the dorm community to the campus as a whole as well (strengthened in large part by the Catholic character and football culture at ND which Dartmouth also lacks) and beyond to the alumni network (which by sheer numbers, puts Dartmouth’s to shame).</p>
<p>The thing that really made my decision at the time though was the element of diversity at ND that Dartmouth lacks. ND has a strong contingent from each of the 50 states and many foreign countries and most of the students are not just from out of state, but from all over the country. When I visited Dartmouth, it seemed that there was a very narrow geographic region represented and that most of the “diversity” they touted was pretty superficial in nature. As a result, I met a ton of really interesting people while at ND and now have a network of friends and fellow alumni across the country. I recently went on a road trip and didn’t have to pay for a single hotel room! And I have met with ND alumni clubs as far away as Taipei. </p>
<p>As far as safety, South Bend really isn’t so unsafe if you stay in the campus area, which most people do, since there isn’t a whole lot going on off campus and everything you could possibly want is available on campus.</p>
<p>Also, as far as the Ivy League designation goes, the significance of that kind of depends on what sort of recognition you are looking for. As mentioned, the ND alumni network is a powerful force to be reckoned with and has the edge in numbers and national distribution over Dartmouth. However, if you want to go to grad school at an Ivy or elsewhere on the East coast- Dartmouth’s name will carry more weight. If you are looking more nationally- I have found more non-academics (in science, tech, and business) have heard of and respect ND than Dartmouth (many people don’t realize that Dartmouth is an Ivy), especially in the Midwest. If you are looking at medical school, I think the schools’ reputations and track records are fairly comparable. I believe those familiar with both schools will respect a degree from either.</p>
<p>Academics: Depends on major, but I’d say the general education at both schools is top-notch.</p>
<p>Sports: ND obviously has much larger/successful varsity programs. Intramurals are big at ND, and I’ve heard that Dartmouth students are very athletic too.</p>
<p>Spirit: School spirit is through the roof at ND! The “Notre Dame family” is absolutely real.</p>
<p>Music: Not sure bout Dartmouth’s music programs, but ND has tons of choirs, bands, and the amazing DeBartolo Performing Arts Center. Also, ND has one of the oldest marching band in the nation.</p>
<p>Parties: Both schools have lively party scenes, but academics come first.</p>
<p>And I realize that the murders in South Bend must be disconcerting, but the crime is really contained to a few rough areas. Here on campus, I feel extremely safe.</p>
<p>My son was just faced with this exact choice. He chose Notre Dame today after coming back from Dartmouth’s Dimensions. Both are great schools and seem to have great school spirit. I think what did it for him was the residential character of Notre Dame (same relatively small dorm for all four years, continuity of friendships since there is no D Plan where you can be away from your friends for ten or twenty weeks at a time, etc.) and the national and vibrant alumni network at ND. And the honors program and its small seminars reduces whatever gap there may be (if any) in academics between the schools. The Ivy name is tough to pass up and Dartmouth is a great school, but it is going through a tough time right now with its seemingly relentless bad press while ND seems to have hit its stride. </p>
<p>So it’s Go Irish here!</p>
<p>Thanks for the comments.@loveneweng How is the study abroad going? Was it easy to arrange? Does he think the Honors program was the right choice? How are the professors in the honors program? His advising?</p>
<p>@shellzie2006 I am surprised that you thought ND has more diversity since that was touted greatly by Dartmouth and lots of people seem to think ND is more homogeneous. </p>
<p>@SXSW123 I actually wondered about the D plan and bonding. Is your son doing the honors program? I am also concerned about the bad press but also know that all schools have bad press and problems with drinking and assaults, tragically. The dorm life trumps the frat presence for me, too. But do the academics measure up? At our Dimensions Day, alumni contacts were highly touted as was the ease of study abroad. And not being an Ivy League-er myself I wonder about that effect and how much that would do for him.</p>
<p>Deep down I think ND would be an easier social fit, while Dartmouth would really challenge him to step out of his comfort zone and I am concerned since he isn’t a frat type. Tell me again that you don’t have to drink at ND and can still have friends and a good time… :)</p>
<p>You don’t have to drink at ND and can still have friends and a good time! I guess my best advice is what I told our son before he went away to ND. “You need to put yourself in the places where the kind of people you want to hang out with will be and you need to do it right at the beginning of school.” For our son,(who is very reserved by nature) that meant joining clubs that represented your interests and beliefs, going to Mass that was more traditional in style instead of his particular dorm Mass, going to liturgical concerts, etc. At those places he met a great core group of friends that he enjoys hanging out with and there is no need for alcohol (even though if someone wants to enjoy a glass of wine that’s OK) . He doesn’t feel the need to hang with “the bro’s”.</p>
<p>As far as arranging study abroad, our son did not have any problem arranging it. You just have to plan ahead to make certain you are taking the courses you need to when you need to take them. He is loving his study abroad experience . He was not sure whether he wanted to study abroad at all because he loves being on campus at ND so much he was worried about missing something! But he is happy he went (his program is run through Duke University) even though he does miss being around “the Notre Dame type students” and the Catholic atmosphere.</p>
<p>As far as the Honors Program, I think he could take it or leave it. After the Honors classes freshman year, he really has not done much with it. Of course, as he is coming up on senior year he will have to do more. He doesn’t really make use of the advising dept in that program as he works with the advisors in the department of both his majors.</p>
<p>He was really concerned about that D plan also. Not really a fan.</p>
<p>As far a name recognition goes, honestly I think more people across the country, unless you are on the East Coast or in high academia, know Notre Dame than Dartmouth. We live in the Rocky Mountain West and very few people here know Dartmouth at all. But the ND alumni network is alive and well and has a strong presence.</p>
<p>It sort of depends on what sort of diversity you are looking for. What I was particularly struck by was the East coast-heavy demographics of Dartmouth. I found Notre Dame to have a much more balanced geographic representation. In terms of racial diversity, Dartmouth has fewer white students, a few more black students by percentage and far more Asian students than ND, but fewer Hispanic students than ND has. Dartmouth has the edge in religious diversity, but at ND, the 85% Catholic majority gives it a unique religious character that has many benefits of its own. You just have to decide which is a better fit.</p>
<p>You can definitely not drink at ND and still have a good time. In the interest of full disclosure, I ended up doing my fair share of drinking while at ND, but I definitely had a great time participating in many non-drinking social activities as well (football games, dorm events, dances, fun runs, campus competitions, campus ministries retreats/groups, cultural clubs, volunteering on/off campus, etc) and had several friends who drank minimally or not at all. For me, I think ND actually made me come out of my shell a bit more than I would have at Dartmouth. If I had gone to Dartmouth I think I would have chosen to live in a dry dorm and avoided the frats like the plague since that simply wasn’t my scene in high school. And as a result, I think I would have self-selected into a more limited group of people. At ND, I quickly befriended a fairly diverse group of people (since dorms are randomly assigned) including those who drank and those who didn’t and felt I had a safer, no-pressure environment in which to decide if I wanted to go to parties and/or drink. This also challenged me to participate in all sorts of activities I never would have tried in high school, which I think is an important part of the college experience.</p>
<p>Thanks, @shellzie2006 Would you speak to the academics at ND? Did you have big classes? TA’s? I think you did the honors program, right? Did you get to know your professors? Did you ever think you would have had a better academic experience at D? Or were you always happy with the academics? I think you went to Med school, right? Did you feel like it all worked out for you as far as the Med school admissions process coming form ND?
I think deep-down that he would probably have more “fun” at ND and the initial transition would be easier and socially maybe richer, at least at first, considering his interests in college sports, band, school spirit, his faith, etc. I am concerned about the “self-selection” that you wrote about. I’m not under the delusion that he will never drink but when we talk about the reality that he may during the next few years he always says that he is not interested. So I sort of think that at first he would not want to hang out and participate in “pre-gaming” drinking (multiple shots before going out?) and then go to the frats and enjoy being around very inebriated people. I admit I don’t quite understand the pong thing. In the same way I am concerned having all of the drinking occurring in the dorms at ND and not being able to be away from it at times if you want. Being from an ancient time when 18 year olds could drink legally, people never drank in their rooms and did it at bars and parties and I don’t think kids were so obsessed with it. I mean there was no such thing as introducing it into orifices other than one’s mouth.
I am sure there are kids at both schools that moderately drink or don’t at all so there would be places to fit in. But I share the self-selection concern.</p>
<p>I am still not clear on how employers/ grad schools view ND vs D. Did people question your decision initially? I believe there will be some here who will. I am sorry for babbling and I appreciate everyone’s advice. This is really harder than I thought it would be.</p>
<p>@shellzie2006 Sorry- I just read some of your early posts where you answered my questions above. Thank you!</p>
<p>I hope my previous posts answered your questions sufficiently! If not, feel free to let me know if you have any additional questions. I’d be happy to PM you my e-mail address as well if you’d like.</p>
<p>I will say again that I have not regretted my decision to attend ND. I think it was one of the best decisions I have ever made. I think it really helped me move on to the next step in accomplishing my goals in life. I will be graduating from medical school in a week and a half and will be moving on to residency in emergency medicine this summer. In general, the response I get when I tell people I went to ND is overwhelmingly positive. People respect the academics of the school and you will meet people all over the world who are alumni or otherwise feel a connection to the school. Having an ND bumper sticker on your car will definitely make you new friends. 
I did have a friend or two who thought Dartmouth would have been the more logical choice because of its Ivy affiliation (I went to a prep school that sent most people out East for college), but I also talked to a few people at the time about my dilemma who had the opposite response and thought I’d be crazy not to go to ND. Being an ND alum seemed to be viewed very positively on my medical school interviews and definitely gave me something to talk about on my residency interviews, particularly when being interviewed by fellow ND alums - which happened at least twice - or other fans. </p>
<p>Thanks @shellzie2006 @loveneweng and @SXSW123 @spencerg0011 @YOTTO1315 @WestCoastCali17 @rdip123<br>
DS decided on ND. He is excited. I am still reeling a bit from the stress. Hope it is the right choice and thank you for your comments!</p>
<p>Congratulations. I’m sure he will have a wonderful experience. Go Irish!</p>
<p>Congratulations!! Welcome to the ND family! Embrace your decision and don’t look back. We will be there with you at Frosh-O moving in our daughter. You can PM me if you have any questions about orientation and move-in or anything over the summer.</p>
<p>Your son’s time at ND will fly by. I can’t believe our son will be a senior already!</p>