Also by genuine I’m not getting at pure effort or work put it in to attain one’s goals, I do believe that Asian-Americans like most applicants put in tons of work to succeed. I’m just have a feeling that there is some bias regarding how people view the initial drive or motivations for certain students in that other races maintain their individualism and internal sense of self, while people see Asian-Americans been forced or artificially driven by their parent, identity, community etc.
Maybe people don’t use the term “think tank” so much nowadays. It implies the product and process revolve around thinking and analysis. All things considered, even at H, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Here’s a def: “an organization that consists of a group of people who think of new ideas on a particular subject or who give advice about what should be done.”
Harvard is really a traditional institution of higher ed, with great resources (and that includes faculty and students.) Many colleges offer a climate of discussion.
It’s a shame people, including some As-Ams, see Asian Americans as some stereotype, so easily canned and dismissed. When I run across a kid doing well (and hungering for more) in math or science, my reaction is a basic Wow. Not that his or her parents pushed. And that goes for other majors. Drive is good. And that’s more than grades.
In general, I would say that trying to explain or excuse prejudice is a fool’s game. There is no rational reason for not liking any Asian person you haven’t met or why a college would not want as many hard-working students as it has room for.
What many of us are trying to to tease out of these debates is whether the mere offer of a benefit that seems to positively affect one race (but, which the institution would argue really benefits the entire organization) is itself evidence of bias or racism against other races to whom the policy or benefit doesn’t seem to apply, or at least not in the same proportions? Some of us are not quite willing to concede that this is a “bias” against other groups, even though it is understandable - given this country’s history - why some groups may feel that it is.
@circuitrider My goal wasn’t to dismiss or explain away any presumed bias or prejudice. And I do think it’s important to try to address the incorrect reasonings behind said presumed biases. If you can understand why certain biases exist, I think you can make a better case to correct them.
IMHO, trying to “understand” a bias presumes that it has a rational basis in the first place. But, I would never wish to discourage a young person from trying their best too defeat prejudice wherever it exists. I wish you the best of luck.
Found it finally–black admissions statistics.
From 2007 mind you. Now factoring in more selective admissions and increased focus on college one could assume many of these statistics have dipped.
I think the most important thing to note is how few students are admitted, and then because of variable yield, how few actually make up the student class.
Take for example Harvard, using their stats about 240 students were accepted this year.
I think this is possible. In a similar vein, I think it’s possible that some adcoms might discount the standardized test scores of Asian applicants on the theory that they are more likely to have had heavy prep. Whether this is true, on average, I don’t know. But I think that if this kind of bias is affecting Asians, it will be difficult to prove, because there is likely to be no written or even spoken policy–it will just be a generalized bias.
You can try to dispel stereotypes with the facts–that is, if the facts don’t support the stereotype. What if (for example) it turns out to be true that Asian applicants to highly selective schools are much more likely to have engaged in substantial prep for standardized tests? I think I would say that it’s still unfair to assume that any particular applicant did so–but would it be unfair to start inquiring about degree of prep?
Yeah, 2007. We tend to think of diversity in terms of the present, how many in this class, or someone’s feelings (today) that he/she was moved aside. What’missing is the sense of progress, as each year passes. Eg, I think you will see, as it’s reported in the next few years, how the SAT/ACT/AP scores of some groups are rising, noticeably. This isn’t dumb luck. As each few years of kids are given better opportunities, pass through higher challenges, and make it through graduation, the pool of those young adults and adults available to inspire and mentor increases.
Hunt, as I said, drive is good. The drive to prep for tests and/or do better, is fine. We all know prep is available and in some cases, not expensive. But we also know stats aren’t the be-all. “Drive” needs to be supported by other evidence than scores. Eg, the STEM kid or pre-med who seeks experiences, versus the one who lays back and founds a club to talk.
^If it can be definitively shown that test prepping can increase an applicant’s SAT score by, let’s say, 150 points, then that would be an excellent argument for discounting by that amount any two applicant’s scores that come within that margin of “error”. It wouldn’t necessarily be an argument for singling out one minority group for extra scrutiny.
The last few posts are why I believe name blind admissions would result in over 70% Asians.
And for the complete buffoon who spoke of diversity of race and think-tanks, does that mean that I can discriminate on the basis of race when hiring for a think-tank? The environment of the place, right? Well, because black people are perceived to be thugs, they’ll make other employees uncomfortable in general, and stifle people from speaking honestly on race-related topics. I’ll just not hire any or very few blacks. How does that sound?
And btw, jews are even more overrepresented than asians at elite colleges, and they form a much more distinct ethnic identity than the amalgamation of Indians, chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, Pakistani, afghani, Filipino etc people we call “asians.” Why aren’t they posing such a threat to diversity?
The true reason for asian discrimination is that asians (as a whole) threaten the mainly rich wasp and jew establishment that still presides over many of the (elite) institutions of this country. They know that by any sensible or objective measures that they’ll get beat out by asians, and are afraid of the threat we pose to the status quo. Therefore, they set up subjective measures which they won’t evaluate honesty and use as a tool to implement their bias and keep asians back. You see this in elite college admissions, and you see this in prestigious workforces like Silicon Valley or Wall Street. Asians may even have a positive bias for getting hired to entry level coding or quantitative grunt work, but once it’s time for promotion, the good ol white boys win. When a startup needs funding from VCs, the same thing happens.
Part of the reason why asians chase after prestigious schools so much is because an acceptance to these institutions serves as a final acceptance into (elite) American society for these immigrants.
For anyone who’s interested in racism against asian-americans, Harold and Kumar is an excellent and comedic movie which explores this topic. We may be a “model minority”, but that doesn’t mean we don’t face our own systemic challenges.
Wow. Was that rant even necessary?
1 + 2 + 3 does not mean that 6 will result in the real world. There are subtleties that you do not appear to recognize…and that could be your issue. Life isn’t a formula. Maybe it is a little flattery that got the other guy the promotion. Maybe he went to the same college as the boss. Maybe he is better at talking to clients, or keeping them happy. Maybe it is all of those things. So even tough your sales may be higher, the other guy gets promoted. The soft issues are not a BS way of holding people down! They are a requirement of life!
And again, Jews ARE whites (and Blacks and Asians)! You can’t equate the two in this way or you are “double counting”!
I found this bit of Harvard history very interesting: http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hraaa/history.php
It was a dangerous and uninformed rant.
It’s hilarious to read on this thread the posts by people who claim that there’s no bias against asians; it’s just because asians don’t have authentic intellectual curiosity because it’s their tiger parents who push them.
The argument comes down to the ends justify the means.
@GMTplus7
Of course there is an effort to hold at a certain level in the name of diversity. They are holding the level of whites too, and plenty of them scream discrimination too. But most of us know it is for the best. Some folks have a better understanding of what slavery did here 200+ years ago and right up until the recent past!
To no one in particular:
Why is “for the greater good” so hard to grasp? In this country, we choose to try to fix these imbalances. Even if some people end up losing. Discriminatory actions are permitted under our laws when a compelling reason can be shown.
Do you hear me complain that I have to pay double so some other kid can get Harvard’s generous package? Or the taxes I pay that go to Section 8 housing or welfare? No. It is what it is, and I consider myself privileged to not be on the other end of that deal.
It seems some folks don’t care about society as an whole, just what’s in it for them.
I was counting how many posts it would take for slavery to come up.
It is integral to the discussion, how would it not?
You know whole thing with black employment already happens in real life. So no need to make it up.