I do in fact have extensive journalism training. Bias works both ways ie. bias towards or bias against. I think we can all agree that Harvard has at least one of those. And really are you arguing semantics on a CC post? I’m not exactly writing a feature about affirmative action here. I just want to have a interesting discussion the issue of bias. Parsing my words does nothing to add to this discussion.
I would love to see some college create a very specific database for perspective students to use. For example I would like to know how many asian-caucasian, public school, > or = 32 ACT kids from N.C. Harvard admitted in the past five years, although this kind of very specific data is probably unlikely to ever happen.
Intended major really shouldn’t be considered at all in my opinion. I think something like 60% of people change their major in college so accepting them based on what major they put on a sheet, when they were an 18-year-old kid seems silly. Also this would completely eliminate the whole undecided undeclared option for students. I should be able to decide that I suddenly hate calculus after my first year of engineering school, and then go study political science without leaving the social activities and people that my school offered. Making them face the transfer process and leave everything they liked about the school seems unnecessarily punitive.
@cmsjmt I am working at a famous EU university in a capital and there is close to zero diversity. This also goes for socio-economic diversity. When I asked about this issue, I was given a blank look and told selecting ‘native’ kids from rich, well educated families was an efficient way of getting the best students.
@dancelance “Accepted at a higher rate” is not that meaningful, anyone can apply. If one group applies at a higher rate, that does not mean they have to be accepted at a higher rate (or vice-versa).
@gibby, but we already know the acceptance rate for women is virtually identical as that for men. The 2013-14 Common Data Set reports that 18,327 men applied to Harvard and 1,092 were admitted for an acceptance rate of 5.95842%; 16,696 women applied and 995 were admitted for an acceptance rate of 5.95951%. So there’s no mystery there. Personally, I find that really helpful information, and it eliminates speculation about whether or not it’s “harder” for a woman to be admitted than a man or vice versa. (http://oir.harvard.edu/files/huoir/files/harvard_cds_2013-14.pdf)
So why doesn’t Harvard just release the same information for the various ethnic/racial groups THEY THEMSELVES inquire about? It would be different if they didn’t ask, but they DO. And they go on to announce how many students from the various groups were admitted. But without knowing the total number of applicants from each group, no one ever really knows if there is a wide discrepancy among in the acceptance rates for the various groups. Thus, accusations of “bias” and “discrimination.”
That may very well be, @lookingforward. But without better transparency about the holistic process, folks with varying agendas (legitimate or otherwise) are going to wonder what the university is trying to hide. And, seriously, how hard would it be for Harvard to do it? Not very, if they wanted to.
Maybe the answer is for the Common Data Set just to ask for that information of all colleges and universities.
Lucie, my attitudes are tinged by knowing not enough kids dig into what these colleges are about, in the first place. The sorts of “what we look for,” stated or clearly implied, found on the colleges’ public web pages and in commentaries by their people. You can see, in chance-me questions and answers, that kids don’t get this grasp. Assumptions get passed around. But no matter how many times they do, it doesn’t make them real.
When we talk about tippy tops, there are kids who apply because they can, thinking maybe lightning will strike and they’ll get in. They may not have the stats and activities. Or they may, but don’t think about the sort of self-presentation required in the app. Then there are kids who clearly went through a broader and deeper self-matching (that’s both qualifying yourself per what the colleges fully look for and pulling from your own record what matters to the elites.)
Right now, I think it would be misleading to say, X thousand of one group applied and here’s the % that got admitted, versus Y number of URMs and their percentages. Each app is read as an individual. If As-Ams don’t want to be seen as some faceless pool, why do we try so hard to apply that to URMs?
Look, I don’t pretend to have investigated the admissions process at Harvard, although I just peaked at their admissions website and was surprised at how warm and fuzzy it felt (“You belong here.” "Why Not Harvard? Why Not You?). But if each application is read as if it’s coming from a unique person, why even ask how applicants self-identify ethnically or racially? That may or may not come out in the application, but if it isn’t specifically germane, why ask at all? (Beyond an anonymous questionnaire after the application is submitted.)
And while I have no doubt that “not enough kids dig into what these colleges are about, in the first place,” what does that have to do with admission rates for various groups? Are you saying that certain groups are more guilty of this than others? Does Harvard have any actual proof of that?
I don’t mean to be argumentative, and in general I get tired of hearing people gripe about getting rejected from a school that makes it its practice to reject nearly everyone. But I find all ofl the obfuscation (and that’s what it feels like) pretty frustrating.
Late to this thread, but as heated as the topic is, I find it disappointing that so many kids feel ‘entitled’ to admittance and believe if only they were … then they would have gained admission. No one knows this for cerrtain, and to have a tantrum about being denied reveals the very students Harvard shouldn’t take in the first place. Deal with your denial and move on. Life goes on without Harvard.
Haven’t you seen much of this entitlement before? I’m becoming very familiar with it. You can’t believe the depths to which it can go when people are steeped in the belief they are naturally better than someone.
You can actually BE at a function for ADMITTED students at the most selective universities and there will be parents yammering about how their kid isn’t getting enough recognition, etc., etc.
“why even ask how applicants self-identify ethnically or racially?” That’s on the Common App, aiui, from Dept of Ed and whatever other groups want to track.
“Are you saying that certain groups are more guilty of this than others?” No. I’m saying most kids don’t adequately match the colleges to themselves and themselves to the colleges. The app isn’t a formality. It’s the vehicle, the presentation- in a sense, the audition.
No one tells high schools to just sent in a list of their 5 best transcripts/brag sheets. The kid has to be able to form a whole picture. To do that, he has to know what he is applying for, why Harvard and why him. And when they don’t, you can’t point fingers. Each kid risks this. Using the audition analogy, it’s like a kid saying, I was in this play and that, am first chair in orchestra- and then not having his lines or music prepared on that day when he stands on stage.
Sorry. But I see kids on CC who don’t get it, who make blanket statements and are full of fear. And then I see kids who just need a piece of advice and the light goes on and they go back and have a new fire in their apps. Which do you think a Harvard wants?
I’m not sure any of that is relevant to different acceptance rates for different groups, and if the process is as you explain it, that 5.9 percent acceptance rate should be the same in each category. Is it?
Maybe Europeans just don’t care about superficial achievement of diversity via skin color or income, maybe the kind of diversity they are looking for is diversity of the minds, i.e. by treating each person as an individual rather than assuming all people who look alike also think alike.
Ummmm… which “Europeans” are you referring to? Do you mean those Europeans of the same ethnic and economic group as those who have been historically favored?
Why don’t we go to the blue collar neighborhoods, the union halls, the immigrant-heavy communities and see how this attitude is viewed?
Nice to post a Libertarian dream— when no one cares to advertise the open doors except to your traditional friends
What do you mean by “And finally, just an observation, based on my own anecdotal experience. I think some Asian families, for cultural reasons, do not follow the best strategy for achieving admission to the most selective American schools. I can’t say they are wrong to make the choices they do, but those choices have consequences.”
Asian immigrant families have a herd mentality about many things. If they hear one story of someone succeeding, then everybody else will copy that exact same path.
What makes that an appropriate place to start, gibby? Two guys, who make their living selling their college advisory services, one of whom charges up to 100k…free advertising.