<p>I have heard of Venture Crews and I know there are some active ones in the area. I was really thinking of more practical "real-world" opportunities once the boys are in hs. For instance, I think some high school boys would find a week of work in state or federal government to be a wonderful experience.</p>
<p>My son is only in 7th grade so he has awhile to go. I think he is going before an OA board sometime this spring.</p>
<p>Motherdear, I think you are right in slowing down your son's Eagle process. I think Washdad's son is the rare exception by continuing with Scouts after obtaining his Eagle. I don't think that one could become an Eagle in our troop before even Sophomore year in High School. One of our last Eagles had maybe 50 merit badges. Our scoutmaster intentionally slows the boys down to make them prove their rank and to know that when they achieve it, it wasn't just a matter of earning badges. I'm not saying that your son is cutting corners but it just seems like earning the Eagle before High School makes it seem not as special somehow.</p>
<p>And, in my mind just staying in Scouts, no matter what the rank through High School, is saying something. I would also put in a plug for Venture Scouts. My daughter and I attended a meeting of a local Venture group and I thought it was a great way for the older scouts to get together and just do activities without the tedium of weekly meetings.</p>
<p>Tokenadult, I think you hit the nail on the head about why OA is not mentioned. It must vary from troop to troop or at least council to council. My older son is a third generation OA and both my husband and father reported a much different initiation experience. The overnight was treated pretty lightly by the OA boys that were administering it and my son felt kind of let down after it was over after hearing about what my husband and my father had gone through. The monthly OA meetings were also extremely boring and after attending one my son refused to go back.</p>
<p>Could the lack of knowledge/publicity about OA for college apps be due to the fact that the boys tend to be selected in their middle school years? Most colleges ask only for honors/awards earned in 9-12 grade. Along that line, perhaps it's best to make sure boys don't earn the Eagle in 8th, because then there is no slot for it in the college apps.</p>
<p>Also, could the physical difficulties that a Scout had to endure for OA in other decades have been specifically eased so there would be no worries about inadvertant hazing?</p>
<p>It wasn't that my dad and husband had any hazing. What both described was that they were taken out into the middle of the woods with a sleeping bag, a book of matches and and egg. They had to make it through the night without talking and somehow cook the egg. Maybe they had a flashlight too? Neither made it sound that horrible, more that they had accomplished something kind of fun and scary. I think my son was taken out into the woods with another oa candidate with a few more pieces of equipment, not sure about the egg requirement and checked on a couple of times during the night by the OA Scouts administering the event. Those scouts were loud and jovial and son said it just didn't seem like a big deal.</p>
<p>Eagle is usually attained in the age bracket of 14, 15, 16. 14-year old Eagles are relatively rare and a lot of adult leaders think that is too young, but if all the qualifications have been met, there is no discretion to delay the award. 16 is typical, because it is almost painfully common that a young man has been told by his parents that his driving priveleges are contingent on final completion of his Eagle award.</p>
<p>There is the occasisional scout that makes it to Life, the rank below Eagle, then falls out of the program until a few months before his 18th birthday, when for whatever reason decides he would lke to complete his Eagle at the last minute. We bend over backwards to make that happen for him.</p>
<p>Venturing is the Boy Scouts' answer to what do with the 16 and up age bracket. Each of the scout troops in our area has a Venture Crew associated with it, the crews are popular, and coed. A lot of Gold award girls do Venturing as well. A lot of girls who have never been scouts at all like venturing. It is an easy sell to parents of girls, to whom it is suggested, if the girls are interested in camping with boys, they can learn about camping under the supervision of adults with Eagle scouts or they can learn it on their own once they get to college. </p>
<p>Most decent sized colleges have Venture crews, as one can be a youth participant until age 21. At the Univ. of Texas, I know there is a big Venture crew that somebody wealthy donated a big chunk of Hill Country land to for Crew activities.</p>
<p>HSMom - my son is another active OA member. I will echo what others have said. The very determined boy can make Eagle by 15-16, if the Scoutmaster allows it. The weekly meetings get old around 14-15, and most boys have Mom and Dad step in and start pushing at about 16, to get the last Eagle requirements done, sometime before the 18th birthday, and to keep the 'fumes at bay. Something that I've observed with many in son's troop, at 17 they begin to realize they are aging out, and get a little nostalgic. These boys are very active, even the ones who aren't making the best grades, like DS, and it gets hard for them to make all the activities and camp-outs - because of marching band and post-season football games, I don't think son has made it to a single camp-out this fall.</p>
<p>HSMom - son went to NoAC this summer and had a great time. He enjoyed meeting boys from around the country, and around his own council. He also got a lot out of the leadership training classes - I was impressed with the type of training they gave the boys. He's Election Chairman, and though he says it is too big a job for a 15 year old, he's doing a fairly good job.</p>
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It wasn't that my dad and husband had any hazing. What both described was that they were taken out into the middle of the woods with a sleeping bag, a book of matches and and egg. They had to make it through the night without talking and somehow cook the egg. Maybe they had a flashlight too? Neither made it sound that horrible, more that they had accomplished something kind of fun and scary. I think my son was taken out into the woods with another oa candidate with a few more pieces of equipment, not sure about the egg requirement and checked on a couple of times during the night by the OA Scouts administering the event. Those scouts were loud and jovial and son said it just didn't seem like a big deal.
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<p>It certainly doesn't sound that bad to me! Perhaps BSA is worried about getting sued if someone goes hungry because they can't cook their egg? People are so litigation-happy these days, I could see some overbearing parent suing for some kind of stress issue: cold, dark, scary, minimal adult supervision etc.</p>
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What both described was that they were taken out into the middle of the woods with a sleeping bag, a book of matches and and egg. They had to make it through the night (...) checked on a couple of times during the night by the OA Scouts administering the event. Those scouts were loud and jovial and son said it just didn't seem like a big deal.
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<p>I won't go into the details of the OA Ordeal on a public forum (shh -- it's a big secret!), but I will say that the basic Ordeal is still done in our Council just about how it was done in the Good Old Days. There is absolutely no hazing allowed, but it is meant to be mentally challenging, a little uncomfortable, and an opportunity for the Scout to think about what he's signing up for. I became an OA member as an adult and went through the exact same ordeal as the boys did -- and it was challenging, uncomfortable, and gave me plenty of time to reflect on what this all meant. Anyone who is "loud and jovial" during the ordeal doesn't Get It.</p>
<p>For the non-Scouts who might still be reading this thread -- the Order of the Arrow is Scouting's camping honor society. A Scout is elected by his peers, not by members of the OA. It's not like a Seekret Clubbe where the members elect new members, it's only open to those who are voted in by scouts who are nearly all non-members. In a big Troop (30+ boys), it's unusual for more than three or four to be elected to the OA in any given year. For what it's worth, the Scouts I've seen elected to the OA were mostly the ones I would have chosen if I got to pick.</p>
<p>For Motherdear, the ordeals I've been involved in have largely been cold, dark, a little scary, but had quite a lot of non-speaking adult supervision. We're interested in the appearance of adventure, not actually threatening their lives. (Although there are times when I might support that ... but enough about my childrens' homework habits.)</p>
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Our scoutmaster intentionally slows the boys down to make them prove their rank and to know that when they achieve it, it wasn't just a matter of earning badges.
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<p>Tell your Scoutmaster that I said he's doing it wrong. The boys get mixed messages from adults in the program. On the one hand, I'd say that at least half the parents and volunteers in the program act like the purpose of Scouting is to earn the Eagle award, and that all Scouting events are milestones on some grim, khaki-clad death march to Eagle. So the Scouts hear that advancement is all-important. Then Mr. Scoutmaster comes along and says, "Hey! Slow down there! We obsess about your advancement, but we don't want you to advance TOO quickly. We especially don't want you to make Eagle at a younger age than my son!" Then Scoutmasters do stupid things like refusing to approve a service project for six months. It's not the way it's supposed to work. If a boy has the enthusiasm to advance quickly -- let him go for it. Both of my sons were like that the first two or three years and then slowed down in advancement. Either way is fine. My only concern is that young Eagles confuse advancement with the program, and tend to value the conclusion rather than the program. Not all 14yo Eagles are like this, YMMV.</p>
<p>If the troop runs a great outdoor program, focused on activities and adventures chosen by boys (not the adults), they will have fun, learn about themselves, and more often than not, advance in the program. Advancement is the byproduct of a good program, not a goal of it. I know of a heavily-overcommitted HS junior who stayed in Scouts a whole year longer than he "needed" to because his troop was going to Philmont and he didn't want to miss it. WashDad Jr. stuck around to mentor younger Scouts (except his brother). I've known lots of teenagers who show up once a month and then for outings. If the kids talk more about the sale at REI than about merit badges, I know we are on the right track.</p>
<p>(Scouts is more than a camping club, too, but don't tell the boys that.)</p>
<p>Washdad, You're assuming a little too much. This particular Scoutmaster's son dropped out in 8th grade but the father stayed in to lead the troop until the group that he had re-started the toop with graduated from High School. When I replied I was thinking of a few immature scouts that had the merit badges but definately lacked the leadership qualifiction neccessary for the upper ranks. I think we agree that there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law and both need to be achieved. BTW, my son went to Philmont twice and those trips were definately the highlight of his BS career.</p>
<p>Yeah, there is more than one way to skin a cat. DS is good on the leadership front - longest running patrol leader in the history of the troop - but not much on merit badges, all that darn writing. There are some other kids who have all the merit badges at 13, but don't "display good leadership skills" - that is, they don't have the responsiblity and don't treat the younger boys in the right way to make good leaders, maybe they should both eventually get Eagle - maybe so, maybe not. The biggest problems in many ways are the adults - too much or too little.</p>
<p>By itself I would agree Eagle is just a very good extra curricular activity. But how many were Senior Patrol Leaders? A much smaller number lead their troops. In my area boys with leadership potential can be elected to attend SOGUS. A weeklong leadership camp. The ultimate Scout distinction is to be selected as an adult leader at SOGUS. In the greater Portland area, about 18-20 boys a year are selected. In the town my son grew up in with a population of 40,000 and two high schools my son was the second boy ever selected to be an adult leader at SOGUS. If I were an Eagle, a Senior Patrol Leader and attended SOGUS I would feel very comfortable with this as an EC. The 18-20 boys selected to be adult leaders at SOGUS every year have a very unique EC.</p>
<p>I think it depends on how much you bring it out in your application. I wrote about it in my essays, sent a description and pictures of my Eagle project as a supplement, etc. I think it helped me a lot (my other ecs were mediocre), but there's no way to be sure. </p>
<p>One of the criteria on the Common Data Set is "character/personal qualities." Colleges that put a lot of emphasis on this might look more favorably on Eagle Scouts.</p>
<p>Parentofbear-
Most scouts who have been in the program long enough to earn their Eagle have held leadership positions in their troop. It would be unusual for them not to.</p>
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I'm wondering what's the most selective college you personally know of an Eagle scout from the last few years getting into.
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<p>In my S's troop there were about 10 Eagle Scouts is his class - 2 to Cornell, 1 to Stanford, 1 to Harvard, and 1 to Princeton - better odds than our top private high school.</p>
<p>These kids had other things going for them as well. Three of them were recruited athletes. My S is an athlete and finished twice in the top 50 in the USAMO.</p>
<p>In our community most boys who reach Eagle Rank never are elected senior patrol leader, the leader of the entire troop. For us only sixteen and seventeen year olds are elected. Most Eagles top out as Troop Guides in charge of two or three patrols. It is simply a matter of safety. An active troop will be: mountain climbing, rock climbing, and white water rafting etc on camping trips. Not all boys can lead others in ways that are fun and safe as high school juniors and seniors.</p>
<p>I am not sure I quite understand the safety thing. Are you saying it is better for the Eagles to handle the outdoor activities and let the younger ones be the patrol leaders? That makes sense. Have any of your kids gone on to become eagles after they were senior patrol leaders? I would imagine that would happen. It certainly sounds like there is a lot of variation from troop to troop. Here, my son didnt get elected to OA until he was 15 or 16 (I forget).</p>
<p>Since this has turned into the official Eagle Scout thread... </p>
<p>We attended a school board meeting tonight where the National Merit Semifinalists from three high schools were recognized and given a nice certificate (or, as Junior said, "a laurel, and hardy handshake"). I know four of the five boys recognized and two of those four are Eagle Scouts. Just thought I would mention it.</p>
<p>Re CC: They announced the college plans for some of the kids. I felt my CC filters slip into place: "That girl thinks she's getting into Harvard and she was only Commended? No chance." "What does she mean that she's going to study law at University of Washington? She's going to be an undergrad, not a law student." "Let's see, he's thinking of a service academy and three of the schools that offered Junior a full-tuition scholarship. Mom and dad can't or won't pay for college." It was kind of surreal really. (Junior had his principal name two of his stretchy-reach schools. Got to admire his confidence.)</p>
<p>I haven't read every entry in this thread, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating things. I gather one question is whether it is realistic to think earning Eagle is a "tip" for selective colleges. One of my son's EA schools now limits the list of ECs to five; S is a very active kid and has many activities, and is a leader in a number of them. However, most of them are academic in some fashion, for example, team science, math and knowledge bowl competitions. (His major school-related activity is not strictly egg-head, however, and involves a lot of different kinds of kids and talents.) When it came time to choose the top five for the application, he did not hesitate to include Scouts, even though he is just this year finishing the Eagle. He has been an active scout and a leader in his troop for years, has been on three High Adventures (Philmont, Sea Base and Boundary Waters) and still attends monthly campouts, long summer camps and most weekly meetings. Hence, while he concedes that scouting may not be as impressive to "elite" schools as many other types of ecs, it has been a big part of his out-of-school life and he feels it says something significant about him, so it deserved to be included, even at the expense of other more standard activities. Whether or not that was a "wise" decision remains to be seen, but as a mother, I think it was a "good" decision.</p>
<p>Also, I thought I would pass along an anecdote about the real-world value of attaining Eagle rank. A few months ago S had to visit a medical specialist at a large research and teaching hospital. Prior to being seen by the attending physician, he was checked by a resident. While asking son about the injury, Dr. Resident discovered S had been camping with the scouts when the problem arose. Resident proceeded to tell S that he is an Eagle Scout and he got his residency partly because of that. At his residency selection interview he was told his application was chosen from the pile because he had mentioned he was an Eagle Scout and the senior physician was impressed by that.</p>
<p>Patrols are by age. Each elects a leader. Boys are generally elected to OA in 7th or 8th grade. They have been to two summer camps by this time and are at least First Class. About 8th grade two boys a year are elected to attend SOGUS Leadership Camp. These are the boys who will be Assistant Senior Patrol Leaders and finally Senior Patrol Leaders.</p>
<p>Yes a boy can be Senior Patrol Leader as a Life Scout. This was my sons path. Elected OA as a 6th grader for his already legendary ability to build ceremonial bonfires at Council wide events. Attended SOGUS as an 9th grader. Elected as Assistant Senior Patrol Leader 10th grade, Senior Patrol Leader as an 11th grader. He was a SOGUS Adult Leader during the summer between 11th and 12th grade. Turned 18 in September of his senior year and was made an Assistant Scoutmaster. So with our structure a boy is elected Senior Patrol Leader most times without being an Eagle.</p>
<p>He completed all the requirements to be an Eagle except for his project by his 17th birthday the beginning of his Junior Year He had SOGUS Training monthly until the camp in June. In July he completed his Eagle Project. Due to timing issues his Eagle Board was not until later in the fall. That winter we had his Eagle Ceremony in City Hall. </p>
<p>Our Troops goals were to get boys to First Class as fast a possible then have boys finish their Eagle Projects as 17 year olds. We found early Eagle meant early exit from Scouting. We had more photo finishes on boys 18th birthdays than we would like but this approach gave them lasting memories and lasting bonds.</p>