<p>Once again, it comes around to blaming the victims-- these teenage girls who’ve just had the worst experience of their life are supposed to now sign up for the second worst. They’re supposed to rush off to an uncaring police department that is going to accuse them of fabricating the story and mishandle their rape kit.</p>
<p>Can we spare a little blame for bystanders here? How about the non-rapists at the fraternity, who did nothing to stop the rape, which as described was a loud prolonged event in a room accessible to all frat members? How about the three selfish “friends” whose shallow devotion to their own social success led them to advise this poor bleeding woman not even to go to the hospital? </p>
<p>Produces a better outcome. Fraternity boys, athletes, they are protected and have been forever. It’s changing. Because of these girls, not in spite of them. For the first time questions are being asked about these inept investigations and cover ups. This is how things change. It’s messy</p>
<p>Because for every clear cut case one way or another there are dozens that are not so clear cut. It’s a thorny issue. It is difficult for society to put the legal system into our bedrooms, into our sexual lives and it will take awhile for society to sort out the boundaries. Think about drunk driving…over time the blood alcohol limit as gone down as far as what constitutes drunk driving…as a society our appetite for punishing someone who drives after drinking what amounts to not very many drinks as gone up. But it’s fairly easy for police to stop a driver and give a breathalyzer. How easy is it for a court system to say that a sex partner is guilty when the other partner texts them, asks if they have a condom and shows up in the room and then weeks later says it’s not consensual or the women who waits weeks, months or years to accuse someone of rape…those types of situations rare as they probably are when they get national attention are damaging. I do believe that we will evolve as far as criminal sexual behavior, but that will occur in the courts not in a sheltered environment of a college campus…but that is where this is starting, much like drunk driving laws was helped by MADD. It won’t be the colleges and universities that change society as a whole, but it has elevated the issues which is good in my opinion. Right now the voices that are being heard are a rag tag of men and women and the cacophony is not well focused. For every UVA there is the Occidental guy or unfortunately the Columbia guy and the mattress dragger…that is the perspective I come from. I need to bone up on how MADD organized and got their political clout together because that is absolutely a success story. Threatening to take away federal aid from universities is a big deal, but it does absolutely nothing for the women who aren’t in college and right now feels pretty ineffectual. </p>
<p>Rape as a crime has been poorly investigated forever. The reason it’s even getting attention right now is because these are educated women. Rape shield laws cut both ways. They kept the woman’s name private, but they kept the stories out of the papers as well. </p>
<p>Rape was a street crime, stranger rape was the only rape, and still we asked what was she wearing? What was her sexual history. </p>
<p>Now these stories tell the truth about rape for the first time. That’s why they matter. From these stories things will change. </p>
<p>The “judge and prosecutor” UVA originally wanted to put in charge of the investigation was a member of this same fraternity. The AG found this out from the media reports and changed his mind. How long have fraternity men been investigating fraternity men and failing to press charges? </p>
<p>This is going to take a while but without these girls nothing is going to change. </p>
<p>If this is meant to be referring to cases of rape, then I think it’s incorrect as to the actual situation. That is, I believe that if we somehow could see video and audio of these alleged rapes, on most of them we’d all agree whether a rape was occurring. And those of us who are parents of boys would do well to remind our sons that in situations where someone might allege there is no consent, the boy can solve this by asking explicitly, “Is this what you want?” and by never having sex with someone who doesn’t say “Yes.”</p>
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<p>This is nowhere near correct, and it’s a pernicious false belief that minimizes the real problem, which is actual rape committed by actual rapists. Probably for every fifty unreported true rapes, or every hundred, or two hundred, or five hundred, there is one case of a guy who was snagged by the ridiculous standard that any woman who has had a drop of alcohol can’t consent. Very few colleges have this ridiculous standard in the first place, and very few college students get thrown out of college for sexual assault whether the accusation was justified or not, but every college has unreported rapes and most have plenty of them.</p>
<p>Let 's take care of the obvious cases first. </p>
<p>The Hobart and Smith case and the FSU are obvious. The fact that we as a society went nowhere with these cases is amazing. Amazingly bad!</p>
<p>We have lawyers here. Jackie’s case. We no longer have physical evidence. We have a lot of witnesses here. Do you have to have physical evidence to convict?</p>
<p>Good point. That is what I would have told her the next morning when I advised her to report the crime. This is a case where there was a very good chance of conviction assuming the evidence is as stated in the story. Of course, it may not be. </p>
<p>I remember that when I was in college–1971-1975–there was a huge, feminist-driven movement about prosecuting rape cases effectively and treating victims much better. There was outcry against the ideas of the past: that the woman’s clothing or personal sexual history should be used to decide to <em>this</em> rape case. Police forces were developing officers–often women–who were specially trained to support rape victims. The message to us was, “If you are raped, go straight to the police. Do not bathe: that will destroy evidence.” And so on. </p>
<p>One big thing, though: the concept of “date rape” --although I’m sure we would all agree it was happening frequently–had yet to enter into the discussion in any really significant way. I think that most people still thought of the stranger or creepy acquaintance jumping out of the bushes or breaking into the house. </p>
<p>For the record, I do not know of anyone amongst my college friends who was raped. There was one stranger rape on campus that we all heard about, because the victim wanted everyone to know for their safety. (That person, interestingly, went on to become very well known in legal/political circles and is very open about her experience.)</p>
<p>UVa knew about these allegations when “Jackie” first reported them over a year ago. And they knew that fraternities were on the lookout for drunk innocent freshman women well before that. But they didn’t see fit to suspend all the fraternities, or do anything else to combat the problem, until the Rolling Stone article was published. Yay for sunlight being a good disinfectant. Now to see if this move accomplishes anything, or whether they’ll just let the fraternities off the hook in a few months.</p>
<p>On edit: Sorry, I used a banned word by mistake. Fixed.</p>
<p>Marie1234, how many women would concoct a story like Jackie’s? </p>
<p>This isn’t some story where a woman says this guy raped me ten years ago and there is nothing during those 10 years to indicate the story is true. </p>
<p>The philosopher Harry Frankfurt wrote a book some years back (with a provocative title) in which he noted that some people have a complete disregard for whether what they say corresponds to facts in the physical world. Such an individual “does not reject the authority of the truth … and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all.” </p>
<p>Change will happen because of these girls having the courage to come forward and tell their stories.</p>
<p>Criticizing them for not doing what women older than them have a difficult time doing is ridiculous, imho. It’s a new version of victim blaming. “If they’d gone to the police…” No. We know that isn’t the case.</p>
<p>But, the good news is that things are changing. Police are being asked WHY they didn’t investigate. Soon they will get in trouble if they do things the “old boys way.” This is the best we can hope for under the circumstances.</p>
<p>Good for Jackie. Now, I hope her friends come forward and tell the truth. </p>
<p>Rape must be reported to law enforcement. Rape must be investigated by law enforcement. </p>
<p>Alumni are raising funds for a victim defense fund - so legal counsel is available to victims of sexual assault. </p>
<p>I don’t care who knew what and when they knew it. I just care that they are fixing it. </p>
<p>I’m stepping out of this discussion, but I thank you, @poetgrl and @momofthreeboys for your polite debate. It’s becoming rarer and rarer on CC these days. </p>