<p>“For Elementary grades as well as Secondary? Goodness”</p>
<p>No. For preschool.</p>
<p>I guess you are presuming your future grandchildren are going to be gifted. So did my brother. After all, he was the cream of the crop with degrees from the top schools and was in every gifted program that was available to him, as were three of us four siblings. His wife? Speaks 6 languages fluents, with English being #4, but good enough to be a Harvard grad, a Fullbright scholar, top European school. So of course, their kids were going to be multi lingual as both parents are, brilliant and in all of the gifted programs. </p>
<p>I have the most wonderful niece in the world, and I adore her. She does not make cuts for the gifted programs. She is barely bilingual and need supplemental help as some slight disabilities have been noted. There is no talk about gifted programs or the elite private schools for her, because it is as clear as can be that it is not going to happen anytime soon. Because she is behind in language skills, it has been recommended that the second language be dropped so that she can be age appropriate in one language.</p>
<p>Her younger brother is everything that the two of them expected all of their children to be. Absolutely fluent in 2 languages and pretty danged good in a third and switches with no issues among them. At least 2 grade levels ahead of himself. Definitely gifted student material. </p>
<p>And there are levels below and above each of those kids and all in between as well, as my old to be parents to young kids brother and SIL have been painfully learning. They live in a highly competitive school district, and though their younger son could do fine there intellectually, and has a good shot at the over the top gifted program there, his sister would be the village idiot there and be put in the “alternative” school which is a euphemism for special ed among the kids. So they both go to a private school that everyone loves, but it costs a lot of money. </p>
<p>You don’t order up what your kid is going to be like. And even if he turns out gifted program material, there can be other features in the mix. Too many times, I’ve seen this planning the cart before the horse fail. </p>
<p>if you buy a house when you know that changes are highly likely, and most probably inevitable, it’s more important that you look for that can likely be sold. And be aware that you can get caught if you spend too much. I’m kinda stuck in my house. I had hoped that at this point in time I’d be able to pocket more if I should sell, but with what happened to the market, nope. You are just guessing what the situation will be for your future grandchild’s needs.</p>
<p>The other thing is that rules change for things like gifted programs and public schools. I dislike the publics for that reason. I moved in to an older neighborhood some years ago because of a good, smallish but not too small public school. They redistricted and build a mega school where they warehoused kids with over 30 kids to a class. They even cut our neighborhood in half so any car pooling plans for some families went out the window. After outcries the district put in policies assuring that no kids would be moved more than twice during elementary school, won’t be moved during middle school and that elementary school class size would not exceed 30 kids k-3 and 30 4-5. Also siblings would be kept together. They then proceded to make exceptions all over the place for such policies. </p>
<p>I very happily paid private school tuitions to miss getting into these discussions. No regrets on that move. Kids thrived and parents i know will still insist how great the school district is and was and taht their kids did just fine, but the nonsense was more than I wanted to take or have my kids have to take. </p>
<p>So counting on public schools to remain static in rules is not something I would do, nor would I count on my kid being gifted student material. I’d be more concerned as to what the options are if he were not or if he had special needs.</p>
<p>CSI, </p>
<p>Yes, I agree that there are good public schools in NYC that don’t have gifted programs.Indeed, some of the best public schools don’t have gifted programs because they don’t need them to attract students. My neighborhood school used to be like that. When it took a decided turn for the worse, the G&T program was implemented.</p>
<p>I also know parents and kids who opt for good high schools rather than sci highs and in many instances things work out just fine. </p>
<p>The OP asked about G&T, though, and I answered the question that was asked.</p>
<p>I grew up in NYC and attended public school by entire life. We moved to a very close-in suburb 30 years ago before having oldest d, as at the time, there were very few options in public education for elementary school. It was your neighborhood school. If your neighborhood school was good you were in luck. There were many outstanding neighborhood schools throughout the city although not in our neighborhood which happened to be Brooklyn Heights and the school at the time was P.S. 8. All of our friends who already had children in the city were in the private school entrance exam process… </p>
<p>Fast forward to current times and I’ve been working in educational sales with schools in NYC for years now. There are still many outstanding neighborhood schools, the gifted & talented process on the one hand has been tightened up and made more restrictive while on the other hand it has expanded into more schools and more neighborhoods that never had g & t. The real difficult process begins in upper elementary school when applying to middle school. Now you apply to middle school and subsequently to high school in a process similar to medical school/residency program match… that is unless you pass the test for acceptance to one of the elite schools - Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Tech, Bronx High School of Science…but then with the smaller school movement there are also many newer smaller specialized high schools with increasingly strong reputations.</p>
<p>It is an exhausting procedure. My closest friend’s daughter’s nanny has an upper elementary school in a poor neighborhood in Queens but after months of exhaustive testing and a daunting application process and working intensively with guidance counselor, the child has been accepted to a highly regarded middle school in another part of Queens… so the next question, how does the child get from her neighborhood to the other neighborhood- possibly by school bus but more often than not it is up to the parent to make those arrangements with either private bus. or just drive them and pick them up. Hopefully that school will be able to offer an after-school program.<br>
Another scenario. my next door neighbor’s son and daughter-in-law have three sons, one just finished second grade, one in kindergarten and one in nursery school. They own a home in a residential neighborhood in Queens. Older son is finishing up at highly regarded K-2 public school, middle son in same school and younger one in application for pk program there. They are concerned about how good the grade 3-5 school might be and then will have to deal with the whole middle school/high school scenario. Deciding whether to possibly move them to Catholic school through 8th grade and see if they then can get into specialized high school.
My cousin has a son in first grade at Hunter College Elementary. When he was accepted to Kindergarten I emailed her mother in MA to explain that getting into Hunter College Elementary for kindergarten is equivalent to winning the lottery or the golden ticket in Willy Wonka…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Absolutely true. We homeschooled our young children in NYC and they got a fabulous early education: art classes at the Metropolitan Museum and MOMA, science classes at the Museum of Natural History, the Bronx Zoo, and the New York Botanical Garden, tons of music and theater (both children’s theater and Broadway and Off- Broadway productions), a zillion free programs through the NY Public Library, a wealth of hands-on experience with American history. The list goes on and on, all just a feast for young minds.</p>
<p>It’s not for everyone. I takes a huge time commitment on the part of one or more adults, and being a teacher, even of your own children, takes a certain gift, and endless patience. But for those with the time, the talent, and the inclination for it, homeschooling in NYC can be an almost magical experience. And a lot of people do it.</p>
<p>The one negative (and this may be what the previous poster was referring to) is that New York State imposes much more burdensome reporting and curriculum content requirements on homeschoolers than most states. Each year you need to submit a complete curriculum plan covering all state-mandated subjects (and there are a lot of them) to your local school district, and at the end of the year you need to submit a report evaluating the student’s progress in each of those subjects. Many homeschooling parents find this onerous; some think it’s too much state intrusion. My own view was always that the state has a legitimate interest in seeing that every child in the state is getting an adequate education (though that’s certainly not the case in the public schools, but it should be). And as a homeschooling parent I actually found the required planning and reporting to be useful (if time-consuming) exercises, to ensure we weren’t inadvertently leaving major holes in our children’s elementary education.</p>
<p>jonri, my town’s public schools are about as close as you could get to NYC’s upper west side as you could imagine. Very diverse in terms of race, income, nationalites, and religions. It’s not the norm for suburbia, but I can think of at least four or five towns that I think have at least reasonably similar demographics. Yes, I’ve probably been adversely influenced by a particular poster, but cheating scandals and various other stories have made me at least feel happy that the choice we made worked out reasonably well for my kids. (Neither my husband or I work in Manhattan, so there was never any reason to live there in any event.) We can get into the city really easily. Mind you I wasn’t really happy with our school system until high school, especially for my oldest.</p>
<p>I appreciate all of these posts. Thank you so much.</p>
<p>In my very humble opinion, the biggest flaw in the gifted program in NYC is that parents with incomes above the median ($50k/household) have their 4-year-olds do test prep for their kids which makes the playing field extremely unlevel. There are districts in NYC with the poorest kids in which not enough kids qualified by scoring over the 92nd percentile on the test to form a class in the whole district.</p>
<p>Of course this is a big problem in the city in general. I understand that educated parents look for the best for their kids–I did it too. But there is an extremely polarized system with great schools and awful schools, and the families with the fewest alternatives (couldn’t homeschool, can’t schlep their kids around the city to little gems they discovered away from their neighborhoods, aren’t educated enough to research and advocate, are in no position to move to an area with a better school) are often stuck in the worst schools. </p>
<p>Class size is terrible throughout the city, starting with 24 kids in Kindergarten, and onward to 34 in high school. I am very glad to be DONE with NYC school choice for my kid (high school junior). We threaded the needle but it’s not easy and we were very lucky, not least because she is not a special-needs kid.</p>
<p>What I am understanding from this candid collection of posts is:
1.It’s Complicated, at every level; must be on one’s toes constantly to stay alert to ever-changing rules, opportunities and roadblocks; NYC is dynamic for better and for worse, education included.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Interestingly, many posts suggest fallbacks and alternatives, most obviously: who can even predict giftedness! </p></li>
<li><p>Some found good results from various programmatic offerings in neighborhood schools. </p></li>
<li><p>Some gentrifying neighborhoods have low-ranking schools due in part to ESL children who score low on standardized testing, no reflection on their smarts or future capabilities just a few years later. So when I see a school rated 2 or 3 out of a possible 10, and only 60 percent of children testing at acceptable academic levels, I need to factor in ESL as a possible inhibitor; also must know neighborhood culture re: attitudes towards schooling in general. Having taught ESL students in upstate Ny – I’m a certified retired public school teacher myself-- I recall watching bright young ESL students tank on statewide tests, and would kick cans over the fact that it wasn’t noted in scoring. This included the language inhibition to understand word problems in the math sections, too. </p></li>
<li><p>If a family can schlep daily to other neighborhoods by subway, that can open up choices. In our case, the intergenerational household we hope to create might allow for that.</p></li>
<li><p>Buy a prop that could be resold in 5 or 8 years, and do not overpay.</p></li>
<li><p>Homeschooling is always an option, enhanced by the city’s tremendous cultural resources – but organize around state standards to be ready for checkins by DOE.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>
Yes and no. It all depends on seats available in a given year, which you can never predict.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to be difficult here, but the bottom line to me is that this potential child is going to have an engaged, supportive, educated, stable home with all the benefits such a home confers. He, she or they will excel absolutely anywhere he, she or they attend. </p>
<p>There are great benefits to being in a school that isn’t officially G&T, and every school has classes with very high achieving students. Here’s the thing. Families like yours can bring so, so, so much to a school and to the other kids enrolled there that it would be a great thing if you considered bringing that education, talent and creativity to a school which might be a little less competitive and driven. Neighborhood schools can be the greatest places in the world, even in NYC, and having friends nearby for playdates and social events is very enriching on its own.</p>
<p>There isn’t an educational structure here where it’s either G&T or it’s the sewer. There is a lot of really good stuff in between and G&T brings some logistical problems on its own that might not be right for everyone. When you do get a seat in G&T, you are already in a place where everyone is competitive and fully prepared to do whatever is necessary to get theirs. Which is fine. More than fine. But it can be exhausting and stressful.</p>
<p>As a NYC resident, I would urge you to find a place where you and your family would like to build a rich and joyful life and then enroll the blessed child into the best school option available at the time because, as I said earlier, a child born into such a family really can’t miss.</p>
<p>Looking at this thread with interest to help me understand the process my brother and his wife are involved with as Brooklyn residents with G and T boys. Boys are currently 3rd grade and 6th grade. It has been amazing to hear the journey they are taking and will continue to take to get these kids to graduate - all in public schools! </p>
<p>Since graduating from his elementary school, nephew #1 started this year at a G/T program at a middle school in Coney Island-Brooklyn. Has had a decent year but had the opportunity to test,interview, give blood (it seems!), for Hunter College High School for next year. He has been accepted and after reading about the school, it amazes me how selective these schools can be - admission only at certain grades? My brother tells me since the school is not tied to the NYC Dept of Education but is publicly funded that there is no tuition, yet little if any standardized testing they have to adhere to?? </p>
<p>Did my nephew win the Willy Wonka pot of gold with this opportunity?? As a midwesterner in a largely blue collar city these opportunities are mind staggering.</p>
<p>Yes abasket, your family won the lottery in more ways than one because now the Hunter child won’t have to go through the monstrous, cruel, high school admission process.</p>
<p>I think most of the answers here, and the OP are missing some very key points. THERE IS NO CHILD! You have NO idea what the potential child will be like, or heck, even if there will BE a child. Don’t we all know someone who planned on a large family only to learn they could not conceive? But there’s always adoption-what if that child isn’t gifted? This takes the helicoptering to a level i didn’t know existed.</p>
<p>There are so very many what if’s here that the entire question should never have been asked. What if the S and DIL decide to move before school starts? What if they end up having a different parenting philosophy from the OP (not at all uncommon once there are actual children)? What if one or both get transferred before they even HAVE kids, or in the middle of this grand experiment? What if-shock-the kid(s) are not gifted? What if someone in the household falls ill with a chronic illness and cannot help teach/raise the kids? What if the neighborhood you choose changes? And there’s so much more…but the question is where to live so that our maybe potential possible kid(s) who of course will be gifted because we are so he/she/they will have the best school experience? SMH.</p>
<p>Look, the NYC school system sounds like I keep hearing the one in Seattle and every other major city is-no one in the upper income levels like it, the school board and admin suck and some random families get lucky with a good school. Everyone else flees for the suburbs of “goes private”. My mother grew up there and 70 years ago her parents had the same opinion. Nothing has changed. My mother didn’t darken the door of a public school until I started kindergarten in another state. </p>
<p>Neighborhoods change. The one where we live was considered the “most dangerous” for a long time. For years I would be the only white person on the bus when we went out. Now young white families are moving in in droves, and they’re starting to send their kids to the local public schools. Ten years ago anyone would have told them to avoid the area. Many years ago this neighborhood was full of Italian immigrants and avoided by the more settled Seattlites. The once red-lined black part of town is now full of $1 million homes. So who knows what will happen wherever you set down?</p>
<p>I loved my parents, I miss them more than words can say. And my older kids are richer for having seen them on a regular basis. But live with them and have them help raise my kids? Um, just no. But if all three of you are on board and want to do this-have a great time. But sheesh-acknowledge that any and all of your plans can change on a dime even before junior makes his or her appearance and certainly after. And that what school district you want is really pretty far down the list of what-ifs.</p>
<p>Let me add that special schools like the middle school that abasket mentions, of which I am familiar, that have applications open to all applicants are extremely rare in NYC. There are great schools but mostly at the tippy top. But to add to this point, to get to that school from many parts of Brooklyn would take two trains and a bus (or would it be two busses and a train?) and who knows how much time, for a sixth grader. Just because it is there for those kids doesn’t even make it accessible.</p>
<p>sseamom-- yes, I agree, but but but when one muses on one’s future plans one needs to know what to look out for. If the OP wants to do this she has to think it through. The only part that strikes me as naive is the assumption (but perhaps this was even just musing) that the kid would need G&T. I imagine the OP has learned something from this thread, so it has served a purpose.</p>
<p>Yes, Hunter College High School is a feather in your nephew’s cap. But it is a very competitive environment and not without its political issues. It is the closest publicly funded (via City University of NY) school in the city to the very selective private (independent, not parochial) schools.</p>
<p>To correct something posted before, Hunter College Elementary School is only open to Manhattan residents.</p>
<p>Again, I have to say that with the upcoming mayoral election, there may be many changes in the NYC public school system. I really hope for more transparency, something that is sorely lacking now.</p>
<p>As for investigating individual schools, there is a ton of information available on each school, both on the Dept. of Education website (schools.nyc.gov), on Schoolbook.org (run by WNYC, the local public radio station), and on insideschools.org. Some relevant, some not. There are other websites,like greatschools that rate schools strictly by their test scores which are often not a good measure. Better to look on the more local websites.</p>
<p>However, this child is not even born yet; extremely difficult to predict the future of the NYC public school system that far into the future, to say nothing of all the possibilities of the potential child.</p>
<p>In general, real estate prices trend with current quality of schools. And in general, Brooklyn is more expensive than Queens, both in square footage and quality of housing stock and in price in relation to quality of schools. Newly gentrified areas of Manhattan (Harlem, Washington Heights, Inwood) are more expensive than Brooklyn and often (not always) less accessible to downtown Manhattan than many parts of Brooklyn. And Brooklyn further south (south of Prospect Park all the way to the ocean) is cheaper often with decent schools.</p>
<p>One more thng: the single most important person in a public school is the principal, in my very humble opinion.</p>
<p>Staten Island is cheaper, still, and has excellent schools. Among the top in the city.</p>
<p>But, again, a kid in a great home will do spectacularly well anywhere.</p>
<p>Also, I don’t see any reason why a family shouldn’t consider the schools when deciding where to purchase a home. Most people do it, so let that go.</p>
<p>Staten Island schools vary, just as in every other borough. The OP mentioned that her daughter/sil (I think) work throughout the city and need to live somewhere that is accessible to all boroughs. I think that rules out Staten Island.</p>
<p>But areas change. This yet-to-be-born child won’t go to school for at least another 6 years, IF the DIL got pregnant today. What’s up-and-coming/dangerous/good now might be entirely different in that time. But whatever. </p>
<p>This is like the Harvard argument my ex and I had (who would pay how much when our son attended-he was 12) . Sure the kid was smart enough-the GT test score proved it. He joined the military and then went to trade school. The Harvard money helped my ex buy a new home…kids have a way of thwarting our best-laid plans.</p>