NYT: Tripped up by New Writing Section on SAT

Parents Forum
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<p>apparently you did not understand the thrust of my suggestion, celloguy, because I think your response suggests something heavier than necessary.</p>

<p>The point of the essay format suggestion was as an equivalent replacement to the SAT writing portion, thus "administered" by CB with appropriate "instructions" -- as every other segment of any "standardized" test comes with instructions for proctors. You are correct, though, it would lack uniform standardization. The point of my suggestion -- again -- followed the direction of this thread, which lamented the current SAT writing format, the endurance factor, etc.</p>

<p>I'm suggesting that there could be alternatives to the SAT I writing assessment -- alternatives that would more closely mimic academic writing assignments (in contrast to an artificial writing assignment which is what the SAT I currently is). As you've alluded to, yes: for many colleges the applicant is encouraged or required to submit a previously submitted graded essay on any topic (& not necessarily from an Eng. class). Naturally the problem is as you've also suggested: such a submission can be forged, altered, edited at home with professional, parental, or other outside help, compromising the authorship. The in-class essay, while no -- not perfect -- does at least address these concerns, and i.m.o. is no less "standard" or "uniform" than the subjective qualities of the currently scored test essays, about which many CC'ers complain. </p>

<p>The SAT I essay questions are usually so "standardized" (i.e., broad) as to be meaningless. The questions themselves make benchmarks difficult if not impossible. In addition, students have told me that their writing is better & more natural when the question is more content-rich. The variations in SAT essay review & scoring further jeopardize the so-called standardization. </p>

<p>And if a particular h.s. English teacher cannot generate a meaningful in-class writing assignment -- one, not several -- during any academic year, sufficient to test the writing abilities of his or her students (and assuming adequate preparation of those students), then that teacher is incompetent, i.m.o. (Speaking as one qualified to teach h.s. English but not currently teaching it.)</p>

<p>No, this is not a perfect solution, but i.m.o. better than the current one. It also simultaneously addresses 2 problems: length of the SAT I sitting, and cost of administering the essay portion.</p>

<p>I also see no problem with additionally submitting non-classroom graded essays or papers along with the in-class ones. (Again, sent by the teacher, not the student.)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"The in-class essay, while no -- not perfect -- does at least address these concerns, and i.m.o. is no less "standard" or "uniform" than the subjective qualities of the currently scored test essays, about which many CC'ers complain"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>epiphany, you've clearly thought this through, and I'm not disagreeing. I did understand your original point, but was just tossing in what I saw as pros/cons. I probably didn't do a good job of it. What I was suggesting was that HS English teachers (yes, you're a pro, and so am I) typically use criteria very different from SAT essay graders when they evaluate student writing in advanced classes. Students who've perused the SAT grading criteria and want to score high have taught themselves to write wordy essays using formal language and "scholarly" supporting examples. They know they won't get points for originality, elegance, sincerity, humor, or complexity of thought.</p>

<p>So, in your testing model, who scores the essays? Who would the students be writing for? If for their own teachers, they'll write to please their teachers or themselves. If for SAT staff who've been taught the CB grading standard, the savvy students will write for that standard.</p>

<p>In other words, I'd like to cut CB out of the process entirely (lightning strikes).</p>

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<p>"In other words, I'd like to cut CB out of the process entirely (lightning strikes)."</p>

<p>And replace it with ...? High school English teachers? The same group that sends hordes of quasi illiterates to colleges, only to see them needing extensive remedial classes? </p>

<p>Not happy with the scoring? Ever wondered about the qualifications and identity of the scorers? TCB, ETS, and Pearsons are not using computers or AI machines but people--mostly high school teachers--who are following precise guidelines to avoid uncontrolled subjectivity. </p>

<p>I realize that there are true superstars among the English teachers in this country, but you seem a bit too quick to label them the perfect arbiters of what should constitute great writing. My experience is quite different as I have witnessed teachers who are unable to grade a SAT grammar test without the key, or grade their own papers without the Teacher's Edition or handouts from the Center for Learning. To make things worse, they seem totally unable to identify the many mistakes that pepper the answer keys to the handouts. Those shortcomings are clearly confirmed by the great number of teachers who are unable to pass the tests of minimum competency in Texas. </p>

<p>Again, I do not doubt that teachers at superlative public schools, or at Exeter and Harvard Westlake could run with the best college faculty, but those superstars are not to be found in our neck of the woods, where many English teachers are not native speakers. </p>

<p>Despite the well-deserved criticism of the current writing test, there is hardly any evidence that we should trust anything housed within the four corners of your typical high school as better options for standardized testing. And this does not even begin to address the high chances for the same organized cheating that takes place in schools battling the requirements of NCLB.</p>

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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>I see much good in the proposal by Epiphany and Celloguy. I would like the colleges to actually see the writing samples rather than only the score. Garland, who is a college prof, considers the score her child received on the Writing Test inappropriate. Although I did not read my S's essay, I also admit that I was surprised by the score he received. It is very likely that adcoms would assess essays differently from the CB's readers--and they are the ones who must decide whom to admit. </p>

<p>Your point about inadequate high school teachers is not really addressing Epiphany's proposal. If I understand correctly, the student and the teacher will select an essay that they think best represents the student's abilities, with the student having the final say in the selection. If the teacher and students are not very good, that essay will not be very good; but it will represent what the student is capable of in terms of writing. And that is the important thing the colleges want to know. </p>

<p>The possibility for cheating is there; but SATs are also proctored by school teachers, and as we've read on CC, they seem to diverge in the discharge of their duties.</p>

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<p>ziggi, I'm trying to be patient, but you write better than you read and comprehend here. You've reiterated much of what I've said, morphed into your own words, and then refuted each point. You seem to assume your audience isn't very knowledgeable and therefore fail to listen well (I have a kid like that and he's pretty annoying).</p>

<p>I'm well aware that CB scorers are ordinary teachers who've undergone specific training to produce <em>consistent</em> scores. I've undergone similar training in my own JC for scoring English assessment essays. There's very little subjectivity involved because it gets drummed out in the process of achieving consensus. It's actually an effective assessment tool in that context, but we deal only with a binary judgment -- remedial vs. freshman comp. There's also vested interest in doing a great job, because these are the same English 101 faculty who'll be teaching the successful students next semester. The CB scorers do an excellent job at what they've been tasked to do; our argument here is that their results aren't particularly useful in college admissions. We've seen example of "perfect" essays. Yes, they ARE perfect by the CB criteria. We just disagree that the criteria are valid for the purpose of admissions.</p>

<p>What I suggested, quite clearly I thought, was eliminating CB scoring in favor of submitting in-class essays directly to the colleges. Epiphany suggested the in-class essays should go first to CB for scoring and then to the colleges. We debated the merits of each approach, and there are good arguments for each. We discussed the finer points of bias; lack of standardization; and the simpler model, fraught with its own downside, of submitting out-of-class graded papers. Your assertion that this somehow puts "the same group that sends hordes of quasi illiterates to colleges" in control makes little sense.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the lively discussion, everyone. I really do appreciate everyone's valuable, valued feedback.</p>

<p>Marite, you are not alone in a surprised reaction to an essay score. You know this from what you've read on CC (including by other parents), but I have similar, until now unreported examples -- including writers with expository & fictional writing awards -- some on a National level, whose mature, spontaneous writing I am personally familiar with but whose writing scores were lackluster . As other posters have mentioned, opinions can vary as to the quality & standards of scoring by CB contractors, & I think this is actually exacerbated by the banal essay prompts themselves. (I think a narrower focus would invite more focused replies, would test the essayist's skill -- & comprehension! -- more carefully, & ultimately upgrade the quality of the scoring.) My own D (I actually forget her score on the SAT II writing, on the "old" system) complained about the vagueness of the question & how difficult it was to know whether one was meeting rubrics, because the parameters were so ill-defined and/or absent.</p>

<p>[Better prompts, for example: "Defend or refute the following statement, with attention in your essay to organization of ideas, support for your point of view, mechanics, consistency of style, and word choice." Or, "Characterize the narrator's/historian's/poet's perspective as evidenced in the following passage." Or even: "Revise this essay!"] All of these prompts address learning that should have been covered by junior year in high school -- learning which is preparatory to success at most 4-year institutions.</p>

<p>However this is done, I agree that in-class and SAT essays should always be sent along with the scores & grades themselves, allowing the college in question to compare mark vs. content.</p>

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<p>I do not see the rationale for allowing a student and their teacher to select an essay that the student wrote as an assignment for a class. The schools have access to the essays written as part of the CB writing section now.</p>

<p>I find it interesting that there is so much discussion about the writing section of the test. Maybe because writing itself is often quite subjective. For me it levels the playing field between candidates. Just to be clear, I am not saying that the field is level, just that it is more level using this method than submitting an essay as part of your application. We just need a few years for it to all be sorted out.</p>

<p>In the mean time our kids were the test cases.</p>

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<p>epiphany, thank you for your gentle rejoinder. I must learn to breathe. In case anybody didn't read that Atlantic Monthly article, "Would Shakespeare Get Into Swarthmore?" here's a link:
<a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200403/katzman%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200403/katzman&lt;/a>
I was delighted to see it's still available to non-subscribers.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I do not see the rationale for allowing a student and their teacher to select an essay that the student wrote as an assignment for a class. The schools have access to the essays written as part of the CB writing section now.

[/quote]
</p>

<ol>
<li><p>A 25-minute timed essay doesn't represent ability; good writing is a process of writing, reflection, revision, rewriting. The test as it stands is about quick thinking and penmanship, not writing.</p></li>
<li><p>The scoring criteria force a style that meets CB standards, which I think we've agreed is substandard writing. Scoring high means writing formulaically. Good writers would be embarrassed to present this as a sample of their ability.</p></li>
<li><p>... and so on.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>"ziggi, I'm trying to be patient, but you write better than you read and comprehend here. You've reiterated much of what I've said, morphed into your own words, and then refuted each point. You seem to assume your audience isn't very knowledgeable and therefore fail to listen well (I have a kid like that and he's pretty annoying)."</p>

<p>Zello, you must be correct about my reading comprehension, because I frankly do not understand the train of thought in the abve statement. Where is the problem here? That I refute something you may have said? That I repeat what you say, but morph your words into the opposite direction. I really, really do not get your point! </p>

<p>For the record, I do not believe that we would ever find much agreement in our mutial positions, as long as yours is supporting the notion that a standardized test such as the SAT should rely on high school teachers for subjective evaluation, or ANYTHING of that sort. With the great disparity of competence, integrity, and resources in our high schools, any attempt to use work performed without the DIRECT supervision of a national group is simply futile, if not entirely dishonest. In so many words, I want less--much less--involvement by high schools, not more.</p>

<p>PS Marite, the colleges HAVE access to the essay. The question is not if cheating would occur, but simply how much of it would take place.</p>

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<p>celloguy, I like your last post re the writing process.</p>

<p>Xiggi, if you're arguing for national standards, I won't disagree with you on that. I just disagree that CB is that standard. On a previous thread some person or persons mentioned the way some other countries qualify their university candidates & graduate their secondary students. This was probably on a standardized test thread on PF. Of course, the reason that Americans tend to disfavor the foreign approaches is that they revert to the meritocracy model & narrow eligibility severely.</p>

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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>Yes, the colleges have access to the essays, but, as Celloguy has pointed out, the essays do not necessarily represent what students are capable of under slightly different conditions. </p>

<p>I remember sweating to produce an essay in 3 hours about some platitudinous poem by Sully Prud'homme (whose only reason for being on the bac curriculum was that he got the Nobel prize over Tolstoy--even Nobel committees can goof). I could have disposed of that poem in one sentence and two minutes. It's as hard writing cogently in 25 minutes as in three hours.</p>

<p>Even lengthening the time to 40 minutes--the standard of a midterm essay--would lead to a great improvement in the writing and the level of thoughtfulness. I would also want more attention paid to proper spelling, grammar and syntax. So what if the quality were raised all around and the the scoring need adjusting?</p>

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<p>Question- I was under the impression that the new SAT Writing is basically the Old SAT II Writing. If so, were there complaints about the old? If not, why not just go back to the way it was before, make the writing optional as before, and if colleges want the test they can ask for it?</p>

<p>I also don't get how a classroom essay under standardized conditions would be a whole lot different, other than it being administered at a different time and place. Wouldn't there still have to be uniform limits as far as how much time, how many rewrites, how much assistance, and so on? Would students be allowed to use a computer? Take it home? Spell/grammar check? So then it opens up another big bag of protests.</p>

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<p>Xiggi, I appreciate, & am not unsympathetic to your disgust with the quality of many U.S. high schools. But it seems that your experience is heavily weighted toward the Lowest Common Denominator variety. Teachers (& many parents here) are acquainted with the range of excellence, and lack thereof, in secondary education. Raising that standard has merit in its own right -- let alone as it relates to college admissions. But dispensing of it is not useful, i.m.o. Making it more uniform? Sure. Better oversight? Checks against it -- such as verification vis-a-vis outside testing? Again, yes.</p>

<p>I will just agree in general that the writing of entering college freshman varies hugely, & probably more than in secondary graduates of other countries. Part of this, yes, relates to varying qualities of teaching across schools & within any school, but it is also related to the informality of expression among the general public & established media (print & broadcast), with its poor role-modeling of standards, i.m.o. It makes it difficult for a formal high school Engl. curriculum to be taken seriously by the students, and at face value by colleges. (Hence, the insistence upon a writing component of some type.)</p>

<p>However, some high school writing is excellent, even superb. And some of it can be viewed on some of the CC student forums. And some of that referenced writing was undoubtedly encouraged & even shaped by excellent teachers who communicate & inspire effectively.</p>

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<p>I guess my point is what is the alternative to the 25-minute essay? The colleges already have that option. Every application includes an essay question . . . even the common app. To me the writing section of the SAT is really just to validate a students ability to write coherently on a topic in a limited period of time. It should be used to validate a students style and understanding by comparing it to the application essay. Additionally, the actual essay is only worth roughly 1/3 of the overall writing score (unless I am reading the grading incorrectly). The rest of the writing section should reflect actual knowledge about "writing".</p>

<p>Regarding time constraints, great writers are under time constraints all the time, ask any news or sports editor.</p>

<p>So, to summarize my point of view, the "new" writing section is just another tool for admissions officers to use in evaluating a candidate. For the time being many of the admissions offices have not figured out how to use that section of the exam.</p>

<p>I guess I am just out of step with most everyone else . . . but I am okay with that.</p>

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<p>Just wanted to add another point, the CR and Math sections of the SAT changed dramatically. However, it appears that there is not as much concern about those sections of the exam as there is about the new writing section.</p>

<p>The CB said that the new SAT would be more about knowledge than potential starting this year. This is in line with what the SAT 2 and ACTs test. Is there a similar concern about those section of the test?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Regarding time constraints, great writers are under time constraints all the ti]me, ask any news or sports editor

[/quote]
</p>

<p>yes, but the SAT essay isn't for writers seeking a sportswriter position; it's for HS kids seeking college admission; apples and oranges</p>

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<p>Eagle:</p>

<p>The problem with the application essay is that there is no way to gauge how many hands it has gone through. What Epiphany and celloguy are proposing is an essay that is written in class and proctored; alternatively, an essay chosen by the student among several that were written in class. The essay would be responding to different prompts, to be sure, but these prompts would be less bland than the ones TCB uses. </p>

<p>One of the reasons colleges want to see the actual essay produced for the new SAT is precisely because they do not trust the application essay to be solely the work of the student. </p>

<p>My S did indeed take the SATII-Writing. I believe that was the last or next to last time it was administered. And I think that his essay score did not reflect what I know of his writing abilities. And I believe that the essay score is what brought his SATII-Writing down (not that his score was mediocre). But so long as only some students took the SAT-II Writing, concerns about scoring did not rise to the surface.</p>

<p>Some colleges have adopted a wait and see attitude about the Writing section. Perhaps it is because they have concerns about the scoring; or perhaps they have concerns about its very format as well as the scoring rubrics.</p>

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<p>This test is entirely too long!!! This generation does not write with pencil and paper. They use a computer and then cut and past various phrases to see what fits best and have a built in Thesaurus so they can try out similar words to see what works in the sentence. While true writers from our generation may protest there is no reason to not use the technology they have been accessing throughout their school years. It would be like asking someone to "zerox" something and mail it rather than use email.</p>

<p>This is the age of technology and successful people know how to leverage it. I don't think either of my kids have written vs. typed since grade school. I agree that a good writer reflects and revises and the longer you have for that the better. I just cannot see how this can work. What were they thinking?</p>

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<p>Marite,</p>

<p>I understand the issue with the application writing prompt but I suspect that there would be similar issues with an essay done for class. Particularly if the essay(s) were done first thing senior year as an english class assignment with the objective of producing an essay worthy of submission to a college.</p>

<p>Celloguy,</p>

<p>Unfortunately we disagree. It is not just sports writers but any newspaper or news magazine has deadlines. So do high school students who have assignments in each of their classes with a number of other commitments demanding their attention. People need to write on deadline all the time . . . just ask any procrastinator.</p>