<p>Eagle:</p>
<p>When S1 was a senior, several of his AP-English assignments were actually application essays! I was rather astonished, frankly. They were homework assignments, rather than produced in class. I would have no objection to having students write their application essays in class, at least one of them.</p>
<p>Marite,</p>
<p>I have no issue with it either. My point is that it the proposed solution has the same issue, perhaps more so, than the standard college application essay.</p>
<p>As noted earlier, I like the idea of the writing section of the SAT if only to validate that the student can write coherently and quickly. The college application essay, which almost all applications require, is where the student gets to take a longer time to compose their thoughts, reflect, rewrite, etc.</p>
<p>That leaves it to the schools to determine how much to weigh the writing section of the SAT. An additional note, the AP English tests are essays and so are many of the tests given in English classes in college. Granted the amount of time provided is longer but they are still timed tests. Many colleges accept for credit the score on the AP test but not the grade the student gets in class.</p>
<p>Finally, I also find it interesting that some colleges provide credit for scores on the writing section of the ACT, i.e. UNC. If you score 32 you do not have to take freshman english. See:</p>
<p>PS, I have gone back and edited this post twice . . . interesting to see what I would get on the writing section of the SAT! ;-)</p>
<p>Eagle:</p>
<p>You would not have the time to edit. :( Would you be less of a good writer for it? I could paper several houses with the drafts of my Ph.D. dissertation and other writings I have done since. Than goodness I am judged by the final rather than the first draft.
I believe there is a huge difference in what can be achieved in 40 minutes vs. 25 minutes, especially if the possible range of topics is more limited, as is the case with midterm essays, and the writing prompts call for more focused essays.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Unfortunately we disagree. It is not just sports writers but any newspaper or news magazine has deadlines. So do high school students who have assignments in each of their classes with a number of other commitments demanding their attention. People need to write on deadline all the time . . . just ask any procrastinator.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>After 20 years as a monthly mag editor (now retired), I understand deadlines. Dailies, of course, have the tightest, and their top writers never cease to awe me. They are hired on the strength of their past performance, not a 25-minute test. The admins at notable colleges (including D's) have either rejected or marginalized the SAT Writing results. For example, Paul Marthers, Dean of Admissions at Reed, has written: "Like the NCTE [National Council of Teachers of English], we worry that the standardized and time-limited nature of the SAT essay will encourage a kind of artificial, mechanized, writing-for-the-test that seems antithetical to the reflective and analytical writing taught in a liberal arts curriculum." I've seen/heard similar sentiments from many others.</p>
<p>I just saw that I made a typo. I can't go back and edit because I've run out of time. The proctor--aka CC software-- won't let me. It does not mean that I cannot be a thoughtful writer or cannot spell. :(</p>
<p>"My point is that it the proposed solution has the same issue, perhaps more so, than the standard college application essay."</p>
<p>Wrong. The proposed solution does not allow for editing by adults, let alone false authorship. (Yes, most testing is subject to some form of cheating, but it would be difficult to anticipate which in-class prompt an Eng. or History teacher is likely to give, & have prepared answers ready for every possible question.)</p>
<p>A college app essay can be authored & altered by anyone.</p>
<p>"Despite the well-deserved criticism of the current writing test, there is hardly any evidence that we should trust anything housed within the four corners of your typical high school as better options for standardized testing."</p>
<p>Agree wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>I also agree with Eagle that writing under a severe time constraint is a valuable skill. Forcing kids to do so puts everyone on an equal footing. All essays are known to be the product of a 25 minute creation process, so they can be evaluated accordingly. Just as it is understood that a doctoral thesis has been researched and polished to perfection over a long period of time & the standards reflect that. I'm not agreeeing with the scores, perhaps. Formulaic writing will probably rate higher than truly creative efforts. But every kid is being judged on what he can deliver on the spot without any outside help. I also like the idea of the colleges receiving the essay & judging for themselves how strong the kid's writing is.</p>
<p>My S loathes contests that involve buzzers. He was more advanced in math than a kid who beat him at the buzzer. For once, he wanted to make sure he had the computation right--his usual downfall is making careless errors of arithmetics rather than not knowing the more advanced math. The kid got the $2000, my kid nadda.
Writing an essay in 25 minutes certainly levels the field. It just does not allow the better writers to show what they're capable of.</p>
<p>Eagle-
Sorry to everyone that this is off-subject (I've already posted on the UNC website).
Since you know something about UNC, do you know what the minimum is for the Honors Program? If not, do you know of students who have or haven't been accepted and what seems to be adequate to get in? If you know, you can answer on the UNC thread, here, or PM me.<br>
Thanks again, and sorry everyone!
643</p>
<p>"Writing an essay in 25 minutes certainly levels the field. It just does not allow the better writers to show what they're capable of."</p>
<p>You're right, of course, marite. But the writing standards in this country are all over the place. H.S. grads can barely string two sentences together in many school districts. I think some sort of standardized writing test is a great idea. Basic writing skills need to be evaluated somehow, and all good writers should be able to produce a solid, organized piece in a short timeframe. It just seems that plenty of kinks need to be worked out at this point. </p>
<p>Just as the SAT I math section is a breeze for kids who are gifted in math. Proving that one can follow instructions and produce a well-crafted (albeit formulaic) piece of writing shows a good foundation. Nothing more.</p>
<p>Plenty of kinks is right.
I think we all agree about the need for writing samples. We just do not agree about the conditions under which they should be produced.
I also think that colleges ought to look for greater writing abilities than the ones displayed in the 20 "outstanding" essays peddled by TCB.
Actually, the math section is not necessarily a breeze for math-gifted kids. When my S took the SAT as a 7th grader, he was already beyond the curriculum that was being tested. He made stupid mistakes--all of computation. If he had taken the time to look over his answers, he'd have achieved a perfect score.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I see much good in the proposal by Epiphany and Celloguy. I would like the colleges to actually see the writing samples rather than only the score. Garland, who is a college prof, considers the score her child received on the Writing Test inappropriate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'd like to see this too. My son will never write a great 25 minute essay, he's just not that quick on his feet for writing assignments. He did manage to get a 5 on the APUSH exam which included a lot of short essays BTW. But I thought he was grossly underscored on his 25 min. essay according to the college board's own guidelines. I thought my 8th grader was probably overscored. I'd much rather see the College Board stick to what it knows how to do (multiple choice tests) and just hand over those essays to the college who could read them or chuck them as they saw fit.</p>
<p>As has been pointed out, the colleges DO see the actual essay, or at least can if they choose; CB makes a scanned copy available.</p>
<p>From a BU Bridge article of February 25, 2005:</p>
<p>
[quote]
In addition, CAS Assistant Dean Michael Prince, who directs the school’s Writing Program, says the Boston University Writing Assessment will continue to guide placement in freshman writing courses because it allows an hour for students to read, analyze, and write — a more comprehensive skills assessment than the 25-minute SAT writing exercise. “The SAT essay indicates whether students can construct an English sentence,” he says. “But it doesn’t tell you whether students can do the sort of thing they’ll have to do September 1 as freshmen, which is read long books, or make sense of difficult articles, and then translate the things they read into writing.”
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ah, the infamous Garland's D's writing SAT 2 test. To sum up for our new viewers: This was pre-longer SAT days, so it was an SAT 2, not 1. I assume things haven't changed much with the new test, though.</p>
<p>BAckground--D got a 770 on the SAT 1 Verbal. She scored an 800 on the multiple choice part of the Writing test. She scored an 800 on the writing part of the PSAT. 4 on the English Lit AP. Graduated from a top LAC Phi BEta Kappa, with much accolades from her profs on her clear, error-free, graceful writing style.</p>
<p>HOWEVER--She was awarded a "six" on the essay of the writing test. 6 means barely literate-egregious errors in grammar, organization, and thinking. It sunk her total grade, despite the 800 on the MC part.</p>
<p>We sent for a copy of the essay. It was five lucid paragraphs, with a clear thesis, three good examples, and a fine conclusion. There were no grammar errors. As Marite mentioned, I do teach writing at a college, and I think I can make these assertions objectively.</p>
<p>CB would not admit an error. The score probably affected her college admissions (something that low would call everything else into question.) D was stubborn and refused to retake. Luckily, when she transfered, her continued stellar record seemed to outweigh this score.</p>
<p>I'd rather see the essays just sent to the colleges, rather than "scored." She would have been fine if that had happened.</p>
<p>Epiphany said,</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wrong. The proposed solution does not allow for editing by adults, let alone false authorship.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How so? What was proposed was to submit an essay that had been provided in an english class. Suppose the assignment was to draft, rewrite, etc.? Most good english teachers will provide meaningful feedback in red pen. The student can also ask their parents, friends or even hire someone to help.</p>
<p>As I see it, the schools already exercise the more contemplative essay option with the essay prompts they provide on their application essays. Many of them ask for more than one essay. Some others are also doing word associations, i.e. Princeton, USC. The SAT writing section is just another tool.</p>
<p>My sense is that the schools may use the writing test and associaed essay to help validate, or even invalidate, whether the application essays were written by the student submitting the application.</p>
<p>garland, perhaps she was "fine." Admissions people have said, over and over, that they regard the new SAT essay as experimental and will "wait and see" about validity. An unfortunate exception is the UC system, where numbers rule. But your D's colleges would have had access to the essay itself and could have made their own judgment if they chose. I'm on your side -- I DO want to see CB scoring eliminated for all the reasons described -- but in the meantime we shouldn't take it so hard.</p>
<p>Eagle, it's been a long and winding thread, but at some point the concept of a <em>proctored</em> in-class essay (i.e., produced during class, without outside help) was introduced.</p>
<p>Garland,</p>
<p>I am not sure about the writing section back in the SAT II days but at least today the schools have access to scanned versions of the actual essays. Perhaps that would have helped your daughter, who knows.</p>
<p>Marite,</p>
<p>I understand about the buzzer mentality. Sometimes the buzzer mentality is what is needed, often times it is not. For your son apparently there was enough in his profile that showed that he could succeed at a highly competitive school. I am sure this was done by using all the tools at hand, nut just the buzzer oriented components of his profile.</p>
<p>Celloguy,</p>
<p>Yes, agreed about the in class proctored version being mentioned. I guess I was picking up on the other thread component, the essay provided for a class assignment. Note Marite's response about her son getting an english assignment to write a college essay in his senior english class. Both of my sons got a similar assignment. My point is that gets us back to whether the playing field was actually leveled or not.</p>