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The presidents of dozens of liberal arts colleges have decided to stop participating in the annual college rankings by U.S. News and World Report.
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<p>Not sure if this is posted anywhere else.</p>
<p>Wow!
Looks like it includes Barnard, Sarah Lawerence, Kenyon, and Gettsyburg, among others. Not Amherst though.</p>
<p>Too bad...most likely they were getting screwed by the rankings because their students were weaker and they didn't have the same resources per capita (ie US News was being honest about where they actually do generally rank in a side-by-side comparison with other top LACs)</p>
<p>...and since they were ranked poorly, they continued to lose top students. I don't think this is the best way to go about it. Basically admitting you can't compete. Nothing "moral" about it since all of the data used in US News is empirical (aside from Peer Assessment) and generally self-reported for things such as resources.</p>
<p>This was well-hashed here when the president of Sarah Lawrence first made the effort.</p>
<p>I don't see this as a "we can't compete!" complaint. Even colleges who are well-served by the rankings don't necessarily care for it, and some of them likely don't fill out the reputational survey, either. I don't know how one defines weak; I have not heard students at Kenyon and Gettysburg and the like described that way.</p>
<p>As I know Babson College refused to participate in the ranking years ago (I don’t know why), but still US news ranked the institution, placing it on 23rd place among the best undergraduate business schools, first in unranked specialty schools and first in entrepreneurship category. So as I know US news will continue to rank schools which refused to participate using the data provided from other official sources, or am I wrong?</p>
<p>hoedown: I don't mean that the schools are weak, just slightly weaker than the schools above them.</p>
<p>When two schools are very similar, but one school has - for example - an average SAT about 20 points lower, that could translate into a 5-6 slot drop in the rankings.</p>
<p>US News will most likely still rank them.</p>
<p>The USNews data questionnaire (not the reputational survey, but the one that collects the data) is very long and onerous, and includes many items that colleges do not have to report elsewhere or report publicly. Not all of these items figure into the actual ranking, of course. </p>
<p>I think it's unlikely that USNews can or will simply generate the numbers themselves via public sources when a school doesn't provide data. Not without some kind of punitive adjustment to the figures. If colleges knew USNews could get accurate data without their assistance, what is their incentive to fill that beast out? It would leave a lot of work for USNews staffers. In short, USNews has an interest in making this a task that the colleges feel compelled to do.</p>
<p>hoedown - I agree, but schools that consistently rank lower probably don't see the advantage in filling out the survey.</p>
<p>I think you are right with the underranking of schools that don't participate - isn't Reed ranked like 30 something now after it stopped filling the ranking out.</p>
<p>I don't like the ranking - the methods they use are biased towards the amount of funding/money that colleges recieve. Just because an instituion has a long history and wealthy alumni doesn't mean that they also have the best instructors or methods for learning. More resources? Probably. Better quality? Not so much. </p>
<p>Just taking a look at three local schools in our area: Emory, Agnes Scott and Oglethorpe - Emory ranked high, Agnes Scott holds it's own, Oglethrope reduced to a third tier - Agnes Scott is said to have "dorms like palaces" well - I've seen those dorms and Oglethrope beats out both of those other schools hands down in living accomodations. This is just one aspect and it doesn't have anything to do with education, but it does relate to student comfort and it's important to us when making decisions for long term living conditions. </p>
<p>Bottom line - there is more to a school than that report and I can see why some schools don't participate in their game.</p>
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I think it's unlikely that USNews can or will simply generate the numbers themselves via public sources when a school doesn't provide data.
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<p>They do it for Reed. Of course, it hurts Reed's ranking a lot (back when Reed participated it was a top ranked LAC, now it's ranked 54th, I believe, which is ridicules--there's the incentive for the college that care about their ranking!). Will they still do it for all of the schools that have dropped out? It wouldn't surprise me.</p>
<p>pearl,
The quality of the dorms is not a factor in the USNWR rankings. Your comment on the history and resources of an institution and their impact on a school's reputation and ranking, however, are IMO on the mark.</p>
<p>hoedown,
What are the other types of data that USNWR asks for that is not used in their rankings? </p>
<p>My impression is that the majority of the schools objecting to the rankings dislike most the subjective Peer Assessment scoring. Personally, I think that the rankings can be quite helpful in terms of providing objective data in one place on a wide variety of schools, but the PA undermines the whole exercise and mostly serves to perpetuate the educational status quo.</p>
<p>I think dropping out of the ranking was a good idea. They base the rank on factors that people don't even consider when looking into a school to begin with. If you like a school and from doing research, you see that this is the right kind of environment and its the education that you want, you apply....who cares about a rank from one source?</p>
<p>I ignore the rankings- they are basically meaningless</p>
<p>When you look at how many kids on CC go to "one of the top HSs in the country", you can see that ratings and rankings don't mean didly</p>
<p>Look at the term "valecdictorian"= for each school it is different and arbitrary and unfair, but somehow, it appears to be meaningful</p>
<p>USNEWSWR rankings or whatever is a marketing tool- they sell magazines, and colleges</p>
<p>Sorry, any ranking that lists Liberty University as a top school, forgive me, but they have no credibility</p>
<p>cgm,
Where does USNWR rate Liberty as a top school? I believe it is listed in the Masters-South category in the 4th tier.</p>
<p>If these schools drop out of the rankings, I think they are doing more harm than good for their prospective students. I use the magazine not necessarily to see the US News rankings but to look at statistics to help me make my decision. Looking in one place to find acceptance rates, student/teacher ratios, mean SATs, and retention rates is much easier than going to each school's website to find these data. Whoever uses this source needs to understand that the rankings are established are based on an algorithm which is fully explained on the pages just before the rankings. If you don't like it or agree with the procedure, than ignore the rankings. But the data it lists can still be very valuable to an undecided college applicant.</p>
<p>"They base the rank on factors that people don't even consider when looking into a school to begin with. "</p>
<p>crazy2rite - Are you joking? The US News uses student selectivity, resources, class sizes, etc. in its ranking - in fact, these are the MAIN things people look at.</p>
<p>Of course the environment from school to school is different, so that requires visitation. However, a side-by-side empirical ranking is very valuable to people (like me) that don't know much about colleges. That is exactly what US News is. There are other rankings that gauge different things too, like THES or Wall Street Journal, but I think the US News is the best one out of all of them.</p>
<p>The only part of US News ranking I think is unimportant is the "Peer Assessment score".</p>
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They do it for Reed. Of course, it hurts Reed's ranking a lot (back when Reed participated it was a top ranked LAC, now it's ranked 54th
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<p>Yes, which is why I said any gathering of data will be slanted in a punitive way. That's what I'll expect they'd do for any college which refused to provide any data. They will not simply go out and find all the same data, with the net result being no effect on the college's standing.</p>
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What are the other types of data that USNWR asks for that is not used in their rankings?
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<p>This year's was 46 pages long and asked 614 items. I think it might be easier to tell you want they DON'T ask for. </p>
<p>For example, when they ask about faculty, they want to know the number at each rank, and the number who have a 12-month appointment vs. a 9-month appointment. Then they want salary & fringe benefits expenditure for each category. They want to know how many instructional faculty are non-resident aliens. And a lot more--that's just a sampling. Beyond faculty....they want to know how many graduates there are in various CIP codes, a full list of majors offered, what kind of teacher certification are offered, what kind of co-op programs, what domestic off-campus study programs there are (and where), ditto study abroad. They ask what sports are offered at team and club levels, along with scholarship availability, types of housing availability, whether there is online registration, library holdings, services for LD students, all disciplinary-level accreditations held, closest airport... this is all in addition to the admissions-related information you'd predict.</p>
<p>Props to Barnard. A school that actually does have something to lose as it's ranked quite highly but is still brave enough to go through with it.</p>
<p>It sounds like they do incorporate some of the stuff you list for things like faculty salary or % of faculty with terminal degrees or fulll-time vs part-time faculty which are part of their calculations for Faculty Resources. But a lot of the other stuff is not included in the rankings (although I see a lot of the same information available on collegeboard.com, eg, housing info, study abroad, etc). Is the request from USNWR much different than the information that is given to collegeboard (and others if they exist)?</p>
<p>Yes, some of the things I mentioned are part of the ranking. But I hope people can see that its not just a matter of USNews saying "What's your average faculty salary?" It's 18 pieces of data they ask for there. </p>
<p>It is my understanding that USNews' request is more onerous than that of others. We have someone whose main job is to keep the CDS updated and to fill out surveys from Peterson's, USNews and the like. The USNews survey moves further and further afield from the CDS; a lot of the stuff that colleges have to provide to USNews is not on the CDS. Some of it does overlap (for example, some of the faculty data is the same as what one configures for the AAUP survey of faculty compensation) but some doesn't (for example, alumni giving has to be figured differently than it is for the Council for Aid to Education's Voluntary Support for Education Survey).</p>