NYU fin aid for 0 efc

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<p>Upstate…if one qualifies for the simplified needs test, one does NOT have to declare any of their assets on the FAFSA. But you have to be eligible for the simplified needs test to have this be the case. Someone who owns a business can NOT file a 1040A or 1040 EZ…not permitted.</p>

<p>I would add only one thing to Calmom’s very good posts. Even if the former Schedule C’s showed a LOSS (as I’m sure Steve is showing), they still are Schedule Cs and someone is going to question the liquidation of this “business”. </p>

<p>Also, can’t schools ask for verification at later dates??</p>

<p>I keep coming back to this thread, just to see what is happening!
Why not just stop posting & let this guy who is gaming the system, fall on his face?
His child is going to suffer, no doubt, but the parent is probably already on NYU’s radar screen & so they will be scrutinizing him very carefully! </p>

<p>NYU is not going to meet 100% of his need, we already know that!
Unless his S has cured cancer or something!
There are so many other great schools out there where Steve’s S could get into, probably get merit aid too, etc. etc & probably do really well! NYU is not the only school!</p>

<p>Calmom, you still need work on your math. To do the sort of financial manipulations you are talking about in the municipal bond market before applying for fafsa, the cost could be 25-50k. That is not an efficient market. Why would I do that to save 3k/year for 3 years (with a high risk it wouldn’t work). If I wanted to scam the system the way you are talking about, it would cost me almost nothing to drop all the assets in a small business, value it at zero and show the income…same effect. I can do that now but I have no interest. If you think I am being devious, you also think I am pretty stupid, but that doesn’t seem to be what you are saying. My income also does not produce 55+k and is not from low yielding assets. If you are not realistic in your math, you can’t make cogent points.</p>

<p>upstatemom, I’ve already told NYU my assets. Yes, they will probably think “more for me.” But that will depend upon their policies and they should not single one person out to treat differently. I suspect they will have to go before the dept of ed auditors to the extent they have a policy taking any assets they can find without regard to the genuine circumstances. You may be right…we’ll just see what happens. But they can’t play games with the NYS aid.</p>

<p>Yes, you could put the assets in a small business which would work for FAFSA schools, but none of those meet needs. Profile schools will value your business for you.</p>

<p>Does anyone know of anyone who has achieved a good aid package with manipulations short of lying? My sister and her financier husband took a good shot at it but failed miserably. DS now at the state college they comfortably afford.</p>

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<p>Actually, support given directly from parent to child is not reported as untaxed income on the child’s FAFSA and certainly is not untaxed income to the custodial parent. The FAFSA instuction for 44j reads:</p>

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<p>Child support is payments made directly from the NCP to the custodial parent. It sounds as if they share custody, though not 50/50, and there is no support order in place for either parent, is that right?</p>

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<p>This was posted by Emeraldkity on another thread. I hope she doesn’t mind me borrowing it. I guess that would put Steve out of the running for food stamps.</p>

<p>Steve is nowhere near the income limits for food stamps anyway…I think it’s around 1.5-2 times the federal poverty level. He certainly doesn’t need food stamps (or medicaid, TANF, etc.) but could probably pay a lower amount in medical insurance premiums through the state’s group program, Healthy NY. Though that may only be for working people who don’t have access to health insurance through their companies.</p>

<p>Calmom’s post were not good. They were completely obtuse to my situation. There are no schedule c or business being liquidated. There are no games being played. I have simply played the bond markets to maximize after tax yield by working up the progressive tax schedule by federal and state. Nothing illegal or game-like. It is an optimization problem. I’ve been doing this since the late 1990’s. My kid applies to school and I look up after the fact to see what is happening. Here I am.</p>

<p>Looking at this situation professionally, someone who has not earned enough income in close to 10 years to file a tax return at all, and does not have any prospect of improvement anytime soon, would obviously qualify for a dislocated worker status. If their assets produced over 50k, I would look to those assets for college. If not, no need to file a 1040a. That said, the muni income did not get caught in the AMT filter so to speak, so I would add it to the agi for income purposes. The result would be something like 2.5-3k in a pell grant. What we have here is I qualify for a 5.5k pell grant less the 2k it costs me to do so, for a net of 3.5k. Not much of a difference, big picture. </p>

<p>Are there people more in need? Certainly. Does NYU need to prioritize the grants to a limited audience when looking at government funds? I don’t know if they have a limited pell grant budget. If they do and someone else is more in need, they should get the funds. It is my job to show accurately where i am. If there are no such limits, then the government wants to ENCOURAGE children to attend schools like NYU. At the same time they want to keep people off public assistance. Right now the income disparity in this country is 5% worse than right before the great depression and the NY times is complaining about agitation and violence on a daily basis. Income disparity can cause the overthrow of the government, so they are not wrong in what they are doing. If you are responsible for doling out the government’s funds, you have a fiduciary duty to manage the process to achieve their healthy objectives. But instead you turn a blind eye towards facts and react on emotional and inflamatory language. I don’t need anyone to talk to me on this subject. However, if you want to debate the merits with me, I center on facts.</p>

<p>“some millionaire living off of tax-free income from investments and pleading poverty.”</p>

<p>such an apt description.</p>

<p>haven’t read the whole thread but know you all are referring to me and my son. YES, my son did get a total of $125,000 in NYU scholarships over his 4 years there. YES he did have outstanding SAT of 2250 790 math, 740 reading 720 Writing, YES he did take out 9600 in Pell grants (2400 per year) and 3500, 4500, 5550, 5500 in subsidized stafford loans for each year and YES HE IS GRADUATING in May!!! with a double major in Politics and History. and YES, he has been on the Dean’s list every year. He has had an amazing time in NYC and NYU made it possible for his dream to come true. </p>

<p>I am so thankful to NYU and proud of my son!!! He has applied to be a Foreign Service Officer (passed the written test and is awaiting results of essays to see if he gets invited to interview in Washington. He is exploring all his options and may enlist as an Air Force Officer candidate if nothing pans out by graduation. </p>

<p>Dream BIG and you can make it happen. This boy was raising in an inner city with NO father and he has worked his butt off all his life. Did I mention I was proud of him.</p>

<p>I am blessed. Thank you NYU for making our dream come true</p>

<p>sk8ermom - you’re right of course, in your post #205. My bad!
I guess that’s another way the system can be gamed, for FAFSA-only schools. Student lives with (at least on paper) the poorer parent, meanwhile the wealthy “non-custodial” parent gives the kid all kinds of money “unofficially”, but kid still “qualifies” for lots of aid (I think someone here mentioned a situation like that in their extended family.)</p>

<p>Yuck. Why do I always feel like I need a shower after reading this thread? EWWWWW.</p>

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You posted that you own a company. You said that the company does stuff that could qualify as non-profit, but it is not a non-profit because it doesn’t make enough money to make it worthwhile to protect its income. Therefore the company must exist in some other form than nonprofit – sole proprietorship, partnership, S-corp… something. That form must be accountable in some way in the tax system. You know what that is, I don’t know – I’m just saying that it exists, it produces either revenue or a loss, and as you are the owner, it ought to be reflected in your tax return in some way or another.</p>

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<p>OK, well that’s easy then. You tell the kid – sorry, I can’t pay for that school – and tell him to turn it down. NYU is very forgiving about ED when financial aid is inadequate – and you’ve already made it pretty clear to them that you had different expectations about financial aid than they do. So no problem… You don’t have to worry about ED, and your son can get busy applying to other colleges. There are probably still some colleges with rolling admissions or Feb 1 application deadlines, so he’s got time to throw in a few more apps.</p>

<p>MomCat2, I don’t think many custodial parents would agree to have their child support payments directed to the child. Those terms are generally set in a divorce decree and approved by a judge. I understand your feeling that it doesn’t seem right that someone with significant assets could qualify for even a small amount of federal/state aid, but FAFSA is, and always has been, primarily focused on income and that’s the way the system is designed. The OP’s income is really not that great - if he hadn’t mentioned that it came entirely from investments, I don’t think anyone would bat an eye that his kid could be eligible for Pell and TAP awards (btw, TAP awards are given to any student whose parents have less than $80K in NYS taxable income).</p>

<p>I was surprised to find that under the Auto 0 formula, all income other than AGI is disregarded. That seems to be by design and, yes, that means that a SAHM who gets $30K a year in alimony (AGI) but $10K a month in child support could also qualify for the Auto 0 EFC. Should they forgo FA that they are awarded, and the school will accept on their behalf, because that’s the way FAFSA was designed? That’s like saying they should volunteer to pay more taxes than they’re legally required to. If Congress doesn’t want to use Pell fund to help these people, they should add untaxed income to the Auto 0 formula. But they have not chosen to do so. It is not illegal or unethical to legitamately file taxes or FAFSA in a way that is most beneficial. For those who don’t agree with the way the current system is designed, your best option is to contact your elected representatives.</p>

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<p>No, not at all. Past income is irrelevant – a “dislocated worker” is someone who has been laid off, not by their own choice. See [Are</a> you or your spouse a dislocated worker?](<a href=“http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/help/fotw91h.htm]Are”>http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/help/fotw91h.htm) – the past earning history is irrelevant</p>

<p>If you CAN work, but choose not to – you aren’t a dislocated worker. If you are self-employed but have become unemployed due to economic conditions or natural disaster – you would be dislocated worker – but if you are self-employed and continue to work, but your business is doing lousy or even losing money, you are not a “dislocated worker”. </p>

<p>A past history of marginal income would be irrelevant to the “dislocated worker” status. Colleges don’t care about past history, they care about the “now”.</p>

<p>Calmom if you want to discuss dislocated worker, you need to work with facts and not fiction. If you or anyone else wants to rant irrationally, I’m not interested.</p>

<p>Actually, support given directly from parent to child is not reported as untaxed income on the child’s FAFSA</p>

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<p>Yes, it IS reported as untaxed income for the child. Any money given to the student by anyone other than the custodial parent is to be reported as untaxed income. The mom is not custodial; therefore, payments made directly to the child are reported as untaxed income.</p>

<p>If the formula is auto 0, they won’t matter. They will count for any other formula, however.</p>

<p>Kelsmom, then why does the FAFSA instruction specifically exclude support given by parents? I quoted the exact wording of the FAFSA instruction in my post and, in the absence of the word “custodial”, I don’t think anyone would interpret it in the way you’re saying is correct. That would mean that every birthday gift, graduation gift, lunch money, medical bill, etc. would have to be reported on FAFSA…it just doesn’t make sense and would seem to be largely untraceable, and therefore unenforceable.</p>

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Yes, but that formulation is triggered only if the family files a 1040a or 1040EZ, not the 1040. </p>

<p>In addition to investment income, Steve has capital losses, so to accurately reflect his tax situation, he would need to file a 1040. He says that makes a $2000 difference to him in taxes, so it would seem that the actual loss would be greater than $2000, but the maximum that IRS allows in a capital loss is $3000 and with his taxable income, he can’t possibly have a very high tax rate … so that’s just one other spot where the math doesn’t quite work out to support his story. </p>

<p>That is, based on his claims, he should be in 15% tax bracket. 15% of $2000 is $300; 15% of $3000 is $450. So the maximum amount that anyone can reduce their taxes by taking a capital loss is $450… and yet Steve has framed this debate as if he should subtract out $2000 from a Pell grant in order to determine net savings. </p>

<p>But the main point is that capital gains and losses are reflected on a 1040. If Steve had a gain rather than a loss, then he would be mandated by law to file the 1040 – even if it was a gain of only $100… because the IRS requires that all income is reported. However, IRS doesn’t care if people don’t report their losses, since losses don’t result in revenue to them.</p>

<p>NYU’s position is that they can look at the overall financial situation, and if they see that someone has filed a 1040a when they think the person ought to be filing a 1040, they can use Professional Judgment to correct the FAFSA. Given the way that the FAFSA is filled out online, financial aid departments must see this all the time – it probably is one of the first things they look for, because kids who don’t have a clue about the tax system probably unknowingly check the 1040a box all the time, and colleges are probably always having to correct that and collect the missing information about other assets and untaxed income. </p>

<p>Steve disagrees with NYU’s determination and argues that NYU can’t do what they are doing. I say they can, for a very simple reason: they HAVE done it, they have made clear they did that knowingly and deliberately, and they are in a position where they have the ultimate power. I do not know of any procedure for appealing or protesting a college financial aid office determination with the Dept. of Education. In theory there should be one, but I have to say – if there was, I think I would have heard about it by now. </p>

<p>Note: the Dept of Education does review college financial aid/ professional judgment decisions, but only on a broad basis, by selecting some colleges for institutional review, and basing that selection at least in part by the overall percentage of students at a given institution whose FAFSAs have been corrected due to professional judgment. Thus, NYU could be subject to review if, for example, the record showed it was fudging with 60% of all the FAFSA’s – but a college the size of NYU is probably very much aware of what numbers might trigger Dept. of Education review. </p>

<p>Other than that, I think the system is set up to mean that the final determination is, and will always be, made by the particular college financial aid department. So being that NYU is the final judge as to this applicant, they can interpret the regs however they want. In this case, they think this is is an applicant who ought to be filing a 1040 and not a 1040a, and that’s the last word as to their aid. </p>

<p>Since NYU has the power to make the determination, then they can indeed do whatever they want. </p>

<p>That’s not a comment on the equities, although I think my position on the equities is pretty clear. I would say this: if I was in charge of making rules for financial aid and meeting 100% need, then I wouldn’t care what kind of tax return the family filed. I would think the most equitable approach would be to count ALL of Steve’s income and ALL of his assets, subtracting out the income protection allowance of, let’s say, $22,000. So lets assume for sake of argument that the total amount of Steve’s bond holdings is $800,000 – I subtract out $22 (income protection allowance) and that leaves $778,000. 5.6% of that is $43,568 - to be added to EFC, on top of whatever is required based on his income (let’s assume the income sourced EFC ends up being $7000, bringing total EFC up to roughly $50K). </p>

<p>I’d figure that if Steve really wants to pay $50K for college, then he can cash out some of those bonds. If he’s smart, he’d cash out whichever bonds had the lowest yield. That would cause a small reduction in his 2011 income, meaning that the following year he would probably end up with a smaller EFC. So over the years, his kid might end up qualifying for a small amount in work study or subsidized Staffords. Alternatively, if he were smart, he’d send his kid to a cheaper school – his choice.</p>

<p>You have to refer to the definition of “parent” in the FAFSA instructions. Parent in this sense is custodial parent. Yes, the wording on the FAFSA is very confusing.</p>

<p>Basically, people are expected to be honest.</p>