NYU fin aid for 0 efc

Paying for College
261

<p>

Er, my kids can’t do Calculus II. You’ve been on CC way too long if you think that most high schoolers have completed that level of math. </p>

<p>And I did fill out the FAFSA for my kids when they were dependent for FASFA purposes; when my son was independent, then he filled out his own. I don’t really see what difference it makes – all the questions were about my money, and my situation is complicated enough that it was easier for me to enter the numbers than explain them to someone else.</p>

<p>I do agree with you that Steve is overstepping normal parental bounds with his dogged pursuit of the issue at NYU, after they explained to him that they were relying on professional judgment for their determination. When my daughter was accepted to NYU, I let her handle the appeal of her financial aid award on her own … there was no particular reason for me to get involved. I figure she could advocate for herself – I just gave her copies of whatever paperwork I thought would be necessary to document an appeal, and let her handle things from there. </p>

<p>I understand your comments about a “teachable moment” and sitting side by side. But please keep in mind that sometimes parents have a good reason for leaving the kid out of the process. My daughter’s dad was not paying agreed child support, but I’ve tried to keep my kids out of the parental squabbling over money, so I didn’t particularly want my d. to see how low the child support number was that year.</p>

262

<p>There are many more ways to share “teachable moments” with our kids than having them fill out confusing financial information on a form as important to their futures as the FAFSA and PROFILE. </p>

<p>And to pick on someone for the following is just childish!-
“ED is the official acronym for the Department of Education… ED. Calmom, if you are going to refer to a government agency, at least get it right. This is a pet peeve of mine esp coming from people posing as such experts. I don’t think the Dept of Energy (DOE) would be concerned about Steve’s situation.”</p>

<p>I could pick on you for your ridiculous spelling (esp = especially), but I won’t.</p>

263

<p>Oh and by the way, knowing college calculus has nothing to do with the ability to fill out a financial form!</p>

264

<p>

No, because they will correct the FAFSA to show a 1040 filing. Even if Steve files a 1040A, they will make the change. </p>

<p>
[quote[You seem to think they can somehow disqualify him on the basis of his tax filing. But what would be their motivation to do so?
[/quote]
Their motivation is to bring the $1 million + in assets into consideration, as well as the tax-free income. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>There is no such recourse. You don’t seem to understand this part of the law even though I have quoted it explicitly: “An aid administrator’s decision regarding adjustments is final and cannot be appealed to the Department”. There is NO recourse.</p>

<p>The federal ombudsman does NOT review professional judgment decisions – it is an agency that helps resolve disputes involving student loans:</p>

<p>

See: [Federal</a> Student Aid - About Federal Student Aid](<a href=“http://www.ombudsman.ed.gov/]Federal”>http://www.ombudsman.ed.gov/)</p>

<p>It has nothing whatsoever to do with FAFSA calculations or the exercise of professional judgment. </p>

<p>PLEASE, read the materials I quoted in post #225. I downloaded a 14 meg. document and spent a lot of time reading through it to find the provisions I quoted. I find it very frustrating when I go to the trouble of finding the legal provisions and specifying the source of my information that I have to debate over something like this. What part of “final” and “cannot be appealed” do you not understand?</p>

<p>I mean it doesn’t matter whether you or Steve think it is right or not. NYU has the final say and they have made their position clear. Your assertion seems to be based on a belief that NYU doesn’t have the legal right to choose “1040” if Steve foregoes his right to deduct his capital losses and files a 1040A. Whether they have that right, legally, depends on how you interpret the word “data” – because they are specifically given authority to change any “data field”. </p>

<p>But even if you think that the type of tax return is not “data” - you are still stuck with the fact that NYU makes the final determination. Let me ask you this: what provision of law or regulation can you find that says that NYU can’t do what they are doing?</p>

265

<p>Are we the only parents who didn’t involve our kids in financial aid filings because our tax returns and financial information are none of their business? My kids don’t know their PIN’s, have no access to any FAFSA info, and that’s the way we like it! They saw their financial aid packages, they were told which schools were affordable for us. That’s all they needed to know. And they can have their own teachable moment on the day they have to confront these forms themselves for their own kids.</p>

266

<p>I work with numerous kids whose parents’ feel the same way you do MommaJ. It’s curious to me, we’ve never thought to be anything but open with ours about finances.</p>

267

<p>Isn’t it illegal to create a pin for your child and use it?</p>

268

<p>It’s at least unethical for the parent to pretend to be the student when signing the form.</p>

269

<p>

Yes it is, and it shows a total lack of trust to their own child’s ability to take care of their own affairs. </p>

<p>Seriously… come on guys… what about ILLEGAL don’t you get here? Did you happen to READ the disclosure when you got the PIN? “I agree that I am the person…” and “I will not share my PIN with…” </p>

<p>Google “helicopter parent” and see what comes up. Okay, I admit, most 17 and even 18 year olds aren’t the best at this, and I’m sure I will prob be the worlds worst…but still, will you continue this through their entire college career? Seriously? You are doing them a disservice. Seriously.</p>

270

<p>Steve, your pleas for a relatively secure, healthy and well-fed twilight aren’t engendering sympathy for a reason: I am not sure you understand our financial positions. While you spreadsheet potential losses due to inflation, we don’t have the funds in the first place. You don’t know anything about our day-to-day challenges to keep up with college costs. We are not living high on the hog. We, too, are worried about retirement. And, heating costs, elder parents, old cars, a leaky roof, and on and on. </p>

<p>You interpreted: Fafsa basically says that if you earn less than 50k, you need your assets to pay your liabilities and puts you at the bottom of the financial spectrum. I didn’t say that, they did. Not quite. Technically, your income may appear to place you at the bottom of one spectrum. BUT, your assets change the picture. Period.</p>

<p>Fafsa is saying that, statistically, most families that earn less than 50k just have no notable assets. Allowing them to skip filling in figures is a reflection of that. It simplifies for them- and for finaid officers who review.</p>

<p>It’s true that one qualification is being able to use the 1040A. And, the related IRS requirements to use this form appear amazingly simple. But, all you have discovered is a loophole big enough to swim in. Plenty of folks are burned for trying to interpret loopholes in their own favor. Because clarification of the law is often based on the intent of the law.</p>

<p>And, the intent is not to allow low income families with large assets to have an identical finaid advantage as families with low incomes and negligible, if any, assets. NYU detected something questionable and is flagging you for it. You can argue all you wish that your strict interpretation of rules is all that is applicable. We just don’t agree with your interpretation of the intent. </p>

<p>As for all this Fafsa pin hoohah. Lets get real. Go ahead and let your own kid fill out his/her Fafsa, Profile, Stafford, etc paperwork. See how far they get. This is far too important to me to “trust” to a kid who dosn’t know how to fill out a withholding- doesn’t know the cost of college, or how to find info on a 1040. Bright kids, lots still to learn. DH reviews the Stafford paperwork with the kids. Not the other way around.</p>

271

<p>Steve, even though they caught you, you’re still my hero!</p>

272

<p>I really wonder why the Feds have not closed the loop holes. In the end my guess is that most with the assets want to pay their kids’ way through college. Isn’t that why we get up mornings and go to work!</p>

273

<p>According to a Dept of Ed release I read last year, they ARE working on loopholes- simplifying for everyone, while trying to better capture all the various financial circumstances families can be in. They acknowledged inequities and “loopholes.”</p>

274

<p>

</p>

<p>“Professional Judgment” is the way the loopholes are addressed. The whole idea of the system is that there is a form which probably will work well at least 90% of the time – and that the forms will inevitably be looked at by humans working in financial aid offices who will make adjustments as necessary to address the places where the structure of the law creates an inequity, either by being too harsh on a family with expenses that aren’t properly accounted for, or by providing an overly generous benefit to families with greater wealth than is reflected on the form.</p>

<p>Obviously that doesn’t solve all problems, but it is probably more efficient than trying to anticipate every possible circumstance. Steve’s situation is probably quite unusual. Giving the financial aid officers this leeway and power really does smooth out some of the rough edges of the law.</p>

275

<p>Oooh, guess I’d better go into hiding from the FAFSA police! (Luckily I already have a pretty good spot picked out–figured I’d need it when the recycling police came after me for that wine bottle that ended up in the regular trash.) My guess is I’m part of a pretty big criminal ring when it comes to parents taking care of FAFSA on behalf of their teens.</p>

276

<p>You guys still don’t understand finance. NYU may not either, but finance says you match assets (financial as well as human capital) up against liabilities (cost of living). You see dollars in tha bank (financial capital) without any human capital and you forget that you must match them up against liabilities. Fafsa does not do this. You people do. Therefore, understand fafsa’s intent and you can THEN exercise pj. Otherwise your professional judgment is nothing but professional discrimination…</p>

277

<p>Steve, according to the FAFSA formula, your are allowed to apply $16,230 of your income to your cost of living. That is the number you subtract out from your remaining income-- it is the same number that would apply to me if I still had a kid of college, or to any other single parent. That’s it. I know that seems piddling, but that IS the “liability” for cost of living that is built in the formula, and it is the same for everybody.</p>

<p>I know, you live in New York, high cost of living. Well, they’ve thought of that. You get to also subtract 8% of your income for that. </p>

<p>Why do you think that YOU should be given consideration for a cost of living that is not given to a single other person in the United States? </p>

<p>I realize you can’t live on $16K. Guess what? Neither can anybody else. But that is the income protection allowance provided by FAFSA. </p>

<p>I know you also think you should be able to preserve all your assets, so you can continue to live on the income they generate. But FAFSA has figured out also - by formula – what your asset protection allowance is – and that happens to be $20K. </p>

<p>Anyway, there’s an easy solution. We’ve been round and round on this. Your kid can attend CUNY, commute from home, COA = $10K per year – if the kid takes out an unsubsidized Stafford of $5500 a year, that leave you only having to pay $4500, and if you are lucky that will be covered by TAP. </p>

<p>Quite frankly, my personal opinion is that Pell grants should go only to students attending public institutions. Private colleges simply take the Pell money and turn around and jack up their tuitions. It makes more sense for taxpayer dollars to be funneled back into public institutions, which are far more cost effective in any case.</p>

278

<p>

</p>

<p>Hmmm…that would create an inconsistent FAFSA and they would not be able to award/process any aid under that scenario. Why would they change it to a 1040 filing when he is NOT required to file a 1040 under current tax law? And remember that the Simplified EFC formulas only require ELIGIBILITY to file 1040A. I’m very sure that there is nothing in the link you posted that allows FAOs to rewrite tax laws. They are supposed to verify that the information provided is consistent with the regs…nothing that you have posted suggests that he is not allowed to file a 1040A and the school cannot randomly change data fields to create inconsistencies. There has to be an actual reason or basis for the change. I think the process you’re referring to is actually verification, not professional judgement. You might search this forum for kelsmom’s many explanations of how this process works. She has explained verification and professional judgement many times in the past, but perhaps she’ll do so again in this thread. </p>

<p>Regardless of what you may have read on the internet, an ombudsman apparently does assist with federal aid matters other than loans. I have recent experience with this, having been referred to that office on a federal grant matter last summer. They were very helpful, gave me the information I needed, and offered to contact the school on our behalf if the matter was not resolved. I forwarded their response to the FAO and the school awarded the grant, although they dragged their heels for months after agreeing to do so. In our case, it was a matter of school policy being somewhat inconsistent with the regs although, in fairness to the school, the regs did not adequately address the situation either, which may be why they offered guidance.</p>

<p>Fwiw, I don’t think that NYU has flagged this guy for anything and it’s entirely possible that his FAFSA won’t even be verified this year, and would not be changed if it were. Steve, did your SAR have asterisks next to the EFC? If so, you were selected for verification by the processor. If not, I believe that the school can still select you but they may or may not. In any case, I think it’s possible that NYU simply declined to add the Pell to his son’s ED offer due to their internal processing schedule. That is, they probably did not have a processed FAFSA at the time. This process takes time and they may not have downloaded and processed any FAFSA info yet or it may be their policy not to add it until the FAFSA is finalized with a “have filed” status. We receive multiple revised award letters each year as the “missing pieces” are filled in…it can be nervewracking for the uninitiated, but it’s really just a waiting game. As for TAP, many NY schools (including my D’s SUNY) will not add it to the student’s awards until they have the estimated award from HESC, and sometimes not until the state budget is in place, as it is authorized and funded on an annual basis. TAP is not EFC dependent, it is based on an entirely separate application, and NYS taxable income is the key number there. HESC gives no EFC-like number, only an estimated award, which remains estimated until the school certifies the student’s status (ie full-time) which happens on a semseter by semester basis. The student can see the estimate by logging onto the HESC website. Afaik, there is no possibility of FAOs changing ANY of that data since every app is verified electronically with the state tax department, not by the schools. IIRC, HESC notifies the student directly if there are inconsistencies and the schools don’t even see the TAP application data.</p>

279

<p>Quoting Lookingforward
“As for all this Fafsa pin hoohah. Lets get real. Go ahead and let your own kid fill out his/her Fafsa, Profile, Stafford, etc paperwork. See how far they get. This is far too important to me to “trust” to a kid who dosn’t know how to fill out …Bright kids, lots still to learn.”</p>

<p>Amen to that! I personally have no problem with my D seeing/knowing about our family’s financial situation. I think it is very important for her to know our financial picture. But with that said, I do not think that her filling in lines on a form (which as said before, can be confusing to even the savviest of parents, as evidenced by the existence of this whole discussion board) makes for a worthwhile “teachable moment” at this point. Yes, when the time comes, she will fill out her own forms for fed loans (she needs to know the gravity of her actions as she will be responsible financially for those), but right now keeping those A+s in College Calc and all her AP classes is much more important!</p>

280

<p>

</p>

<p>MommaJ, I think you’ve taken it one step too far. Your kids SHOULD know their own PINS and SHOULD be esigning their own FAFSAs. Parents sign with their own PIN. I certainly hope you’re not using your kids’ PINs to accept loans on their behalf :eek:</p>