October Shipmate Superintendent's Call

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
21

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Surely you spent enough time in the Navy to observe a leader who held Captain's Calls where the troops aired all their discontents and then the skipper became a micromanager, bypassing the chain of command, fixing everything. Troops were happy and the chain of command was ruined. Uncle Rodney was famous for them, both formal and informal.

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<p>69’ Once again you amaze me with the manner in which you frame things in the extreme in order to make what you must believe to be a point we all missed. How about a Captain’s call where he/she actually heard something that they were not aware of and then through the chain of command took appropriate action instead of playing what amounts to an infantile game of “I don’t like the way you are behaving so I’m not going to talk to you”…Do you think if there was a Captains call at Walter Reed information of some value might have passed to the right people in time to make a difference and not have that debacle unfold in the press instead? </p>

<p>Once again you use the name “Uncle Rodney” I assume by the long list of critical observations about the man you are referring to the former Superintendent with something less than a term of endearment? He was an Admiral I believe? So to apply the standards of leadership by example, what do your expressions of apparent contempt and condescension towards the former Superintendent suggest to our current Mids as an appropriate approach to treating the current Supt? Or should you be exempted from the standards of conduct since you didn’t approve of his leadership style? But… but, that would suggest to our Mids that if they don’t approve of the current Supt’s leadership style and they choose to emulate your behavior they could act with similar contempt towards this Supt, who also happens to be an Admiral? Not the advice I’d give my son. </p>

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Parents, please consider that your endorsement of their inability to follow the orders of the new administration is not helping them but hindering their growth. They are the best and the brightest. They need to remain that way. You need to get on board and help them. The Brigade, the administration, the Alumni, and most parents will be very grateful.

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<p>Do you honestly think that the majority of parents here, many of whom are former servicemen and officers are corresponding with their sons and daughters and encouraging them to NOT FOLLOW ORDERS? Our comments and observations here are just that, I can’t speak for all the parents here, but if I said for the most part we tell our sons and daughters to suck it up and get it done, I don’t think I’d be too far off the mark. </p>

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It will be coming down via the chain of command though. None of it will be going up the coc directly from the mids to the supt. Have no doubt, Adm Fowler is in charge.

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<p>“None of it will be going up the coc directly from the mids to the supt.” Funny, I actually thought information went both ways in a chain of command, assuming there was some interest in making it work of course. Then again if you are going to throw out analogies comparing our Mids with inmates in a prison, you probably don’t want to know what they think after all.</p>

22

<p>"Not one of the 6 wants anything to do with the sub community if that is the type of leadership they produce."</p>

<p>This is a very sad statement. Sad IMO, because these young men are making a judgement, based on one individuals leadership style. Which IMO, is very unfair. There are ALL types of leaders in this world, civilian and military, you emulate the best qualities from those you look up to and leave the rest. After more than 15 years as a sub family, we still are deeply <pun intended!=""> tied to a community we love. My husbands closest friends and our families dearest friends are from the very close-knit sub community. Some fellow USNA grads, others not. Coast-to-coast you will know most everyone and their families. If you have any influence over these young men, please tell them to reconsider, the sub community is a wonderful family to be part of!</pun></p>

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<p>It is an unfortunate statement that I hope they will come to realize is wrong when they see that the policies or actions of one man or woman shouldn't be used to define any group of people. The level of resentment is running high right now and I think it's going to get worse before it gets better given the leadership style currently in vogue at the academy.</p>

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<p>And to think that the newest Medal Of Honor winner, Navy SEAL Lt. Michael Murphy, neither went to USNA nor had an ROTC education at Penn State.</p>

<p>He was "only" an OCS graduate. Probably partied, built houses, tutored underprivileged kids, and perhaps even tuba-tooted his way through college before becoming a hero.</p>

<p>:rolleyes:</p>

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<p>^^^^
And now for the rest of the story:</p>

<p>NOTE: This is not to disparage the late LT Murphy nor his SEAL team mates. </p>

<p>LT Michael Murphy and his two other team mates would have survived their surveillance mission had they not made the fatal decision of releasing the shepherds who stumbled across them in the mountains of Afghanistan. </p>

<p>Did LT Murphy make the correct decision when he decided to release the Afghan shepherds instead of killing them when his mission was compromised? Did he have the proper training to make the correct decision? If LT Murphy had decided to kill the shepherds, would that action have been moral and lawful? LT Murphy had to make a fatal decision without assistance or guidance from his superiors because they were incommunicado.</p>

<p>The professional development program at USNA prepares future naval and marine corps officer to deal with difficult situations such at the one encountered by LT Murphy.</p>

<p>LT Murphy's failed mission fall into the "No Excuse, Sir" category. One of the tenets that midshipmen are taught is that when officers screw up people, can and do, get killed.</p>

<p>Neither OCS nor Navy ROTC offers the same professional development program as USNA. The same can be said about West Point.</p>

<p>There is a reason that most MOH winners receive the award posthumously.</p>

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<p>"One of the tenets that midshipmen are taught is that when officers screw up people, can and do, get killed." GreatAmerican</p>

<p>Reminds me of the time bush daddy naval officer, George H.W. Bush, was the sole survivor after his plane crashed and his entire crew perished in the South Pacific during WWII.</p>

<p>"Chester Mierzejewski, an old war buddy of Bush, who said he was angered by the 'false assertions' made by candidate Bush when describing the incident, gave a different account. After 44 years of silence, Mierzejewski, who also was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, told the NY Post that Bush had abandoned his crew to death when there was another choice. He said he was approximately 100 feet in front of Bush's plane as the turret gunner for Squadron Commander Douglas Melvin's plane, 'so close he could see in the cockpit' of Bush's bomber. Mierzejewski's close wartime buddy was one of the two crew members in Bush's plane... He saw 'a puff of smoke' come from Bush's plane which quickly disappeared and was certain only one man parachuted from the plane and that it was Bush, the pilot. Mierzejewski said the Avenger torpedo bomber was engineered so that it could successfully crash land on water and that Bush doomed his own crew by bailing out and leaving the bomber out of control."</p>

27

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NOTE: This is not to disparage the late LT Murphy nor his SEAL team mates......</p>

<p>The professional development program at USNA prepares future naval and marine corps officer to deal with difficult situations such at the one encountered by LT Murphy.......</p>

<p>There is a reason that most MOH winners receive the award posthumously.

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<p>Of course, only a USNA graduate with no liberty, mandatory study hall and mandatory meal formations would have shot and killed all of the shepherds.</p>

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<p>Another option would have been to abandom the mission and get the hell out of Dodge.</p>

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<p>And yet the offical US Navy version says that ALL THREE ejected from the plane at 3,000 feet, but only 1 parachute opened, Bush's.</p>

<p>Either he or the US Navy is lying.</p>

<p>Back to topic......</p>

30

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Uncle Rodney was the nickname bestowed on the former Supt by members of the Brigade. I agree, hardly appropriate when he was their leader. However, surely I rate the same priviledges. ADM Rempt is retired. He is history, now for the history books. We are to learn from history lest we repeat it. Nothing I have said about him compromises the good order and discipline of the current administration or the Brigade.</p>

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<p>Great American: I am hoping your post concerning LT Murphy was meant to be sarcastic. Even then, I would have alot of issues with it. In fact I have changed my mind and do not feel your post is even worth commenting on.</p>

32

<p>So . . . . trying to keep this as simple as possible</p>

<p>Should one deduce, based on the comments made herein, that OCS officers, because they do not receive the same leadership training as USNA graduates, are simply not as qualified; at least through the LT grade.</p>

<p>Furthermore, based on the comments made herein, should it be deduced that, based on the odds, USNA produces officers who are, somehow, superior to others.</p>

<p>These conclusions should be made despite the Supt. contention that the fleet "does not care" from where an officer graduates.</p>

<p>Confusing to say the least.</p>

<p>Finally, what is the "reason" that most MOH are awarded posthumously?
Is there an implicatio here--trying to read between the lines--that a failure of competence rather than an accomplishment of heroism typically leads to the death of the person to whom the honor is bestowed? </p>

<p>Clarification would be nice; especially when such a flippant remark is made about those who are awarded this country's highest military honor.</p>

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<p>Bill, if I were to take a stab at the observations, as confusing as they may be, I would guess that the contention you cite " the fleet does not care where an officer graduates from" has more to do with the reality that comes with the presence of that officer (from the USNA/OCS/ROTC) on board a ship, sub wherever and the expectations of competency that everyone on board has for them. The fact is not all the officers in the Navy/Marine Corps are going to be Academy grads, that does not in any way absolve the graduates from other institutions from the responsibility of doing their job with the same level of competency and motivation. I think what is actually being said is the Fleet doesn’t care about credentials, it cares about competency. Obviously you could make the case that among junior officers an academy grad might have a leg up given the totality of their experience. </p>

<p>I will say that I believe the fact that our Navy/Army/Air Force is made up of officers that come in from a variety of institutions results in a net positive for our armed services, much more so than a liability. Bringing people together with a variety of skill sets and experiences should result in a capacity and flexibility to respond to a more varied set of circumstances. That may not always be the case, but overall, I think it’s a good thing. I hope that makes sense.</p>

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<p>I have found several abstracts of studies that members of this forum may find of interest. In short, the one based on sub officer data (<a href="http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA343427%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA343427&lt;/a&gt;)
shows that USNA grads outperformed ROTC and OCS officers on most measures used. Some of you will love this quote from the abstract:
"Also, non-technical majors are more likely to remain in the Navy than engineering majors."</p>

<p>A second study, using SWO data, found that NROTC officers "are more likely to stay in the Navy to the O4 promotion board." However, "Academy graduates, engineering majors, officers with CRUDES experience, and officers with top fitness reports are more likely to promote to Lieutenant Commander."
<a href="http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA343643%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA343643&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>At least from my reading, these abstracts suggest that overall, USNA grads do outperform officers from other sources, at least to the O4 level.</p>

<p>However, an abstract from Military Psychology states that, "Contrary to expectations, commissioning source and letters of recommendation were reported to be not heavily weighted." (Presumably, this refers to the probability of becoming an Admiral.)
<a href="http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327876mp1803s_7%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327876mp1803s_7&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Okay, let's propose a hypothetical situation. A SEAL team, deep in enemy territory, is compromised when a group of civilians wanders upon them. The team does not have the benefit of any outside communications whatsoever. Their next contact with outside forces will be at extraction a couple of days later and many miles away. To merely release the citizens is an almost guarantee of death to the entire team. Dragging the civilians with them would certainly compromise their position. Scrubbing the mission or calling "time out" is not an option. Is there anything in the USNA selection and training process that would make a USNA grad more informed in making a decision than a typical OCS grad?</p>

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<p>The bottom line remains that the longer one spends in the Navy, the greater the liklihood that the person they are saluting is an Academy grad.</p>

37

<p>Ok I’ll bite… </p>

<p>I think it would be reasonable to say that an Academy grad should be better prepared to deal with a situation such as you describe based the on level of training and requirements to make decisions under stressful situations. They are also have demands placed on them that in some cases can only be resolved by prioritization of choices, they have to be prepared to let something’s go in order to succeed at others. </p>

<p>This scenario would be a very difficult one for even the most seasoned and well-trained of officers, Academy grad or not. It requires them to consider compromising or trading between two very fundamental aspects of who and what they are. They are soldiers on a mission now put in a position to choose between the potential success of that mission and perhaps their own survival with the understanding that in order to secure the success of their mission they may have to compromise a most basic ethical code of conduct. </p>

<p>One thing I hope we all keep in mind is at their level of training they are told and I’m sure believe they can adapt and overcome to most any circumstance or scenario. I don’t think you can do the jobs they are called upon to do without that feeling at some level. Releasing the civilians that they stumbled upon may indeed result in an “almost guarantee of death”, but pulling out your sidearm and pulling the trigger with the muzzle against the head of those civilians is an absolute guarantee of death. Short of finding another way out, securing the civilians in some way to contain them until they had left the area, they had only two choices. If a Seal team believes in their ability to get out of the impossible even if releasing those civilians cut their odds down to 1 in a 100, making the decision not to execute those civilians and not compromise their code of conduct becomes all the more easy to do.</p>

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<p>That this decision resulted in the deaths of a SEAL team leader and two of his men is the point which GA was attempting to make which grad/dad found offensive.</p>

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<p>And the 20/20 hindsight that both of you have, suggesting that a USNA grad would have done things differently, is disgusting, offensive, condescending, and insulting to every non-USNA officer.</p>

<p>You have no way of knowing what a USNA trained officer would have done, you can only offer your own biased speculation and personal opinion (which you stated in another post that you NEVER do :rolleyes: ). They may have done the exact same thing, rendering your speculation worthless.</p>

<p>Check out ALL of the MoH winners from the Navy that were officers.</p>

<p>Then check out how many came from USNA and how many were awarded posthumously. Then compare the list to those were not Annapolis grads, and were not killed.</p>

<p>Until you have some hard facts (and even after you do) your opinion carries no more weight than any of the "meddling moms" you belittle here on a daily basis.</p>

40

<p>Luigi, I can certainly understand that people may be offended by a post mission analysis made by those that know little if anything about the situation and quite obviously weren't there on the ground with the responsibility for the mission and men. One reason I like to avoid such discussions and stick to the “theoretical”. </p>

<p>I should also say it would be nice if we could have discussions about subjects including somewhat controversial ones without all immediately escalating into Defcon 1. Perhaps I picked the wrong one to pursue that with course with. I will grant you any discussion about a mission in which lives were lost is in itself risky as some will understandably take offense if there is a perception that people are second-guessing the outcome. </p>

<p>It's not my place to speak for '69 but rereading the post </p>

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I think it would be reasonable to say that an Academy grad should be better prepared

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<p>is a long way from saying an officer and non academy grad -as I was/am- would have made mistakes that an academy grad would not. My expectation is that my son will be an Academy grad one-day and that his level of training and preparedness coming out of the Naval Academy will undoubtedly be better than the level I experienced. I hope that training gives him an advantage, in accomplishing his mission and in the pursuit of his career...because if it doesn't then it certainly diminishes the point of him attending the Naval Academy and having the opportunity to experience all that he has...</p>