<p>This is the most vibrating thread with heart-to-heart discussions.
By the way, I wonder if Asians at Ivy League institutions would like
to see their numbers double?</p>
<p>No. There are no legitimate reasons for Affirmative Action. I haven’t heard any that cannot be easily refuted. I never said that AA is worse than discrimination, at least some smart Asians and Whites still get to attend college while the same wasn’t true for minorities in the 50s and 60s. I am saying your rhetoric of “colleges are private and can do whatever they want even if it is discriminatory” was the same rhetoric used by those who wished to hurt minorities decades ago. </p>
<p>Background? You didn’t mention any other background outside of race… “blacks” and “Asians” are a race, it could also be a background but it is also a race. But lets pretend it is about background which has nothing to do with race. Is discriminating based on your background, who your parents are, any less terrible than discriminating based on race? </p>
<p>“blacks, with their unique and often adversarial backgrounds,” that’s a little racist…</p>
<p>lolololololol… same here</p>
<p>Cardoza dear there is no reason to start calling me names. Let’s try to remain civilized shall we?</p>
<p>“By talking about race you are stating that there is a difference between it” </p>
<p><em>facepalm</em> that is exactly what I am saying. There is no distinguishable difference between races which is why everyone should be held to the same standard.</p>
<p>Now lets try to READ arguments before calling OTHER people disgustingly ignorant eh? </p>
<p>Congrats on getting accepted, someone saw some potential in you. After all, college is about molding people to change the world so maybe you will get there in a year or four.</p>
<p>lol u so funny, vivian</p>
<p>Where are these so easily produced refutations you speak of?</p>
<p>vivian,
That’s a red herring. It’s has nothing to do with my reasons for justifying affirmative action.</p>
<p>
Racial backgrounds are the only ones we are finding controversial, right now, vivian. But I assure you that the assessment of your background — academic, socioeconomic, cultural, athletic, etc. — is what basically constitutes the criteria colleges use to admit you. It’s not very terrible at all if it’s done right.</p>
<p>Background has loads to do with race. Getting born an African American means you will lead a totally different life from that of an asian or white dude. It’s not just having different parents that’s significant — its leading a different life because you have different parents.</p>
<p>Legacy admissions are the superficial parent-based admissions you should be so fervently criticizing. ^_^</p>
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</p>
<p>That word…I don’t think it means what you think it means.</p>
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</p>
<p>Oh, well that is so laughably and obviously wrong that I am wondering if you are living on a planet different from mine.</p>
<p>Ahh so that is where our biggest difference comes from. You believe that different races are capable of different things. Some races, e.i. minorities are capable of less than Asians and whites and should be given an advantage because its simply not fair that they are capable of less. I got you. I don’t believe in that though. I think any generalization based on race is wrong and that everyone should be held to the same standard. But it’s your choice to believe what you want. </p>
<p>@redherring </p>
<p>“I was simply stating that Columbia is a private institution that can use whichever metrics it chooses to accept students.” </p>
<p>“Getting born an African American means you will lead a totally different life from that of an asian or white dude” That is a pretty big generalization there buddy. Why do you assume that people of different races are so different? I have known African Americans that live in high rises, attend synagogue, and get perfect scores on their SATs. I’ve known whites and Asians that have done the same. Why do you think you are so different from those who just happened to be born in a different race? </p>
<p>"Legacy admissions are the superficial parent-based admissions you should be so fervently criticizing’</p>
<p>I don’t think you understood me. That’s alright, my logic can be a bit highfalutin at times. “Who your parents are” could do with legacy you are perfectly right, you get a gold star. But who your parents are also determines what race you are, or as you like to say “what background you are born into”. Who your parents are shouldn’t decide whether you get into college.</p>
<p>Any pro-AA argument can be easily refuted because it is based on generalizations and stereotypes that don’t hold true.</p>
<p>Diversity may be desirable on campuses, but instead of giving certain people an easy boost because of their status, an effort should be put in to encourage kids from all different backgrounds to succeed instead of just doing mediocre and hoping their race would get them into their dream school.</p>
<p>Other than having it as a compensatory policy, which we can both agree is ridiculous, there is no real reason to have AA.</p>
<p>U guys should just stop arguing.</p>
<p>Before y’alls start arguing about asserting the superiority of one race over another, realize yourselves that you guys are doing the exact same thing on a smaller scale, by using ad hominem and ignorantly placing your beliefs at a higher merit than that of another person. I find it ridiculous (and pretty laughable) that people are arguing about discrimination and superiority while committing to the act themselves at the same time.</p>
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</p>
<p>Wow. Your reading skills amaze me.</p>
<p>Capable of less? Hell, no. Through education, anything is possible.</p>
<p>What makes an accurate generalization immoral besides for the sake of your argument? </p>
<p>What makes you think African Americans aren’t held to the same standard as other groups when it comes to bringing something unique and meaningful to a school’s class composition?</p>
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</p>
<p>This is still seriously ridiculous.</p>
<p>You’re telling me that living in a high rise, attending a synagogue and doing well on the SAT makes an African American’s life the same as everyone else’s? How superficial is that?</p>
<p>African Americans have an entirely different cultural identity. Must I detail how and why that is so? Do you not detect the differences between Asian cultures and African/African Diaspora cultures?</p>
<p>You’re missing out on a very basic reason colleges are still allowed to use race in their admissions decisions.</p>
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</p>
<p>You’re telling me that I cannot safely generalize that African Americans have an African American background.</p>
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</p>
<p>You think colleges don’t encourage kids from all backgrounds to succeed.</p>
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</p>
<p>I’m still waiting for the easy refutation.</p>
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</p>
<p>Wait…are you saying that discriminating between a good argument/justified belief and a bad argument/poorly justified belief is wrong?</p>
<p>That’s hilarious.</p>
<p>"Wait…are you saying that discriminating between a good argument/justified belief and a bad argument/poorly justified belief is wrong?</p>
<p>That’s hilarious."</p>
<p>No. But nice try. You just further proved my point.</p>
<p>Could you clarify instead of continuing the ol’ and probably misfounded holier-than-thou routine?</p>
<p>I think some here will find these blog entries from MIT interesting:</p>
<p>[Diversity</a> or Merit? | MIT Admissions](<a href=“http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/diversity-or-merit]Diversity”>Diversity or Merit? | MIT Admissions)</p>
<p>[In</a> Praise Of Holistic Admissions | MIT Admissions](<a href=“http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/in-praise-of-holistic-admissions]In”>In Praise Of Holistic Admissions | MIT Admissions)</p>
<p>“When we admit a class of students to MIT, it’s as if we’re choosing a 1,000-person team to climb a very interesting, fairly rugged mountain - together. We obviously want people who have the training, stamina and passion for the climb. At the same time, we want each to add something useful or intriguing to the team, from a wonderful temperament or sense of humor, to compelling personal experiences, to a wide range of individual gifts, talents, interests and achievements. We are emphatically not looking for a batch of identical perfect climbers; we are looking for a richly varied team of capable people who will support, surprise and inspire each other.
*
Put another way: we are not looking for the thousand students who aced the math SAT. Or the thousand students who won some biology award. Or - for that matter - the thousand students who come from poor, underrepresented backgrounds that make our hearts bleed. We are looking for the best mix of all these students who will together constitute a terrific class. And in assembling this class we consider many, many, many factors holistically in our process.
This is what we mean when we say we value “diversity.” It means we want a lot of different people, from a lot of different backgrounds, to come to MIT and to learn from each other.
One of the most important things about college is its role as a socializing institution. College is a place where you meet all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds and you learn from each other. It is, properly constituted, an environment which fosters intellectual, ideological, and social cross-pollination.”</p>
<p>“Could you clarify instead of continuing the ol’ and probably misfounded holier-than-thou routine?”</p>
<p>I’m sorry, did you genuinely expect a lengthy response considering the quality of your own post? If you REALLY insist on continuing an internet sass battle with me, please PM me instead of spamming an irrelevant thread.</p>
<p>I just expected something a bit more…in congruence with your previously asserted values.</p>
<p>But don’t mind me.</p>
<p>Vivian,</p>
<p>You are arguing that there is no difference, which I agree. Simply by talking about the difference though and how there is no difference fuels the argument. I am fully for the idea of changing the world and in fact feel that many people in the past have done it already. What I do not believe in though, and what I feel you are ignorant about is the idea of changing everyone’s opinions. You will never do it. Racism exists in the world today and will exist tomorrow. Your best bet is to ignore others’ opinions(as hard as it may be) and move on in your own life and live according to your values, which seem to be the same as mine when it comes to the lack of differences in race. </p>
<p>p.s. I am not advocating passiveness in the face of active racism, but rather just in the face of opinions. Also, I am sorry if you were offended by anything Vivian dear, but I never called you names. I did say your arrogance in thinking that your view is superior to others was disgusting. You are not the only one I feel this way towards though; I feel everyone else in this argument is the same way. I am not stating facts, but simply my opinions which I do not feel hold any more merit in the world than yours do.</p>
<p>I think you all should just shut the heck up! Honestly, there is no point in arguing about this. You guys have no idea how many people you are offending! It’s good you’re standing up for your belief, but just keep it to yourself and talk about it to people who actually care! Learn to choose your battle… this is definitely not a battle to worry about!!</p>
<p>In my opinion, AA rubs some people because on the face of it, it appears that “less qualified” (however one determines it) people get admitted OVER “more qualified” people. On a purely merit based system, that’s understandable.</p>
<p>But private colleges do not have to practice cold, stats driven admissions and many do not. The institutions look at what their ideal student body should resemble. It may mean A% recruited athletes, B% legacy kids, C% international full-pay kids, D% super musicians, E% science prodigies, F% native americans, G% African Americans, etc.</p>
<p>Once this unofficial goal (or quota) is determined, each applicant is sorted into one of these pools (or categories – cf. [Reed</a> College | Admission | Reed College Admission Office](<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/admission_messages.html]Reed”>http://www.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/admission_messages.html)). Let’s say for argument’s sake the avg ACT of the musicians group is 30, the ACT for the black students is 31, and those who don’t fall into any pool or “non-pooled” have an avg of 32.</p>
<p>If there are 10 actual slots allotted to the musicians’ group and 20 apply, then it’s easy. You offer to the top ten. The lower ten – aren’t superior to anyone in the “non-pooled” group and are rejected. But a nice 50% rate</p>
<p>The non-pooled kids had 100 slots set aside for them. But they have 1000 applications. Rough. Only 10% admit rate.</p>
<p>There are 20 slots allotted for black students. In the first read, 60 kids apply of whom only 18 meet the school’s minimum requirements. Those 18 are initially accepted, the other 42 are rejected.</p>
<p>Let’s say 3 late applications come in from African American kids and all have great stats. But now you have 21 who are above the line. What happens? is one taken away from the non-pooled group? Nope. The lowest kid gets rejected and joins the other 42.</p>
<p>You see, the applicants in the non-pooled group were never in contention for any of the 10 seats set aside for musicians nor the 20 set aside for black applicants. The lowest stat admitted black kid – doesn’t take a seat from the Asian kid – he takes it from the 21st black applicant.</p>
<p>So the anger, mistrust, frustration about the “unfairness” should not be directed at the individuals within the groups. Nor is it useful to compare avg ACTs among the groups. These decisions are made a the highest levels of the university. Go tell them what you think. Or better yet, read the Reed College article.</p>
<p>@Philovist</p>
<p>How is affirmative action different from race-based anti-URM policies. Both are advancing a specific group of people at the cost of the equality of others. What do you mean not one respectable person would argue they are the same? That is the reason the case regarding it is in the Supreme Court right now, so again take your idealogy with people having to owe you something because you’re black away because effectively that is the argument that you are making in that comment. Why don’t we do the same for the Japanese who we held in internment camps? Philovitist, you laugh that races are not that different? They really aren’t go back to freshman biology people differ by a couple alleles on the skin, so unless you are an actual racist in thinking that black people are less adept and should be held to the same standards lets not laugh at people who actually think they should be held to the same standards as everyone and be expected to perform as well as everyone else.</p>
<p>And for all the morons, yes morons, who say colleges like Columbia can do whatever they want because they are a private college are completely misinformed. As i said before they receive a large amount of money from the Federal government and if they were to not follow the regulations of the government, their money would be cut off; this is why Columbia was first to argue in favor of Affirmative Action in Fisher v. UT because they know the result affects the future of their “positive discrimination.”</p>