Official MIT Class of 2012 Regular Action Decisions Thread

<p>MIT's online newspaper has an article about this year's admitted class (http:///www-tech.mit.edu/V128/N13/admissions.html). Stuart Schmill is quoted as saying: "Some of the students that we weren't able to admit were off the charts."</p>

<p>These days, around 8,000 students qualify annually for the AIME. Back in the 1970s, when my brother-in-law was an MIT student, that number was around 1,000. Today, just like 40 years ago, every student admitted to MIT is strong in math and science. That is still a given. But as another poster pointed out, the pool of talented mathematicians has expanded over the years. Qualifying for the USAMO will garner your application serious consideration, but it's no longer a guarantee of admission. </p>

<p>My freshman daughter's dorm suite includes a varsity volleyball player who's also an engineer, an award-winning artist who's also a published researcher, a rock climber whose also a gifted musician and mathematician.....I could go on. And when someone in the group needs help with a pset, everyone chips in quite cheerfully, sometimes at 2:00 o'clock in the morning. </p>

<p>Yes, MIT could admit simply by the numbers. But then perhpas MIT would look like some other top engineering schools, where the students keep to themselves to a greater extent (Caltech, according to the student who gave us a tour 2 years ago) or compete against each other for lab space and research opportunities (Berkeley). </p>

<p>@collegealum: You seem to assume that if MIT considers passion and drive, that means MIT does not also consider math and science potential. I think these days, MIT considers the entire package: math + science + passion + everything else MIT's admissions webpage describes in "the match."</p>

<p>@hopelessly: You have my best wishes for the future. I believe you will have other wonderful choices, given your talents.</p>

<p>@hopelesslydevote: I think you should have been admitted to MIT. I don't know you, but I'm reasonably certain that there is nothing whatever wrong with you! Your accomplishments are far more than "enough."</p>

<p>Please stick with math/science/engineering! These fields need people with your ability--there are not enough. Also, please take heart--as you continue in one of these areas, your qualifications will be judged by people who are more and more preponderantly mathematicians/scientists/engineers, by profession. </p>

<p>While Mollie is right that grantsmanship counts to some extent, I think that's only true at the margins. Mollie's grantsmanship would get her nowhere if the underlying ideas weren't sound, and important. And I'm pretty sure that some of my grants were "sold" solely by the ideas themselves, since I'm not too good at sales.</p>

<p>@CalAlum: I have to say that I think that Stu Schmill's comment about "some of the students that we weren't able to admit" strikes me as odd. The postings on this board do suggest that at least a few were "off the charts." I agree with that part of his comment. But the admissions committee was perfectly well able to admit those students! They chose not to do so. I think that they should take more responsibility for their decisions.</p>

<p>@collegealum314: Unsurprisingly, I agree with the overwhelming majority of your comments.</p>

<p>For the record, I support affirmative action, because I've seen evidence of discrimination that still has to be overcome. </p>

<p>But MIT admits a large number of students. The number of students in the country with hopelesslydevote's qualifications is really quite small. The odds that hopelesslydevote could not be admitted on AA grounds are vanishingly small.</p>

<p>cellardweller: "There are actually over 500 USAMO finalists annually. MIT does recognize its value and it certainly is a tip factor in admission but clearly not a guarantee."</p>

<p>You're correct. However, many of those are underclassmen, so they all don't apply to college in a given year. I'm not sure how many USAMO finalists were seniors. Additionally, some USAMO spots are set aside for underclassmen so there are more underclassmen qualifying than you might think. </p>

<p>My guess is that the number of USAMO seniors qualifying are in the 100-200 range. Someone who recently graduated would know better than me, though.</p>

<p>"But MIT admits a large number of students. The number of students in the country with hopelesslydevote's qualifications is really quite small. The odds that hopelesslydevote could not be admitted on AA grounds are vanishingly small."</p>

<p>Yeah, exactly. MIT admits something like 1400 people a year. Even if you include girls as URMs, there are something like 700+ non-URMs admitted in a given year. I really doubt there are 700 more people that could be more impressive than this guy. And btw, the USAMO qualifiers I've met usually do well in the physics competition as well, but not also chemistry and biology. This guy is extremely unusual. Maybe down the road he'll be one of only a few people in the world equipped to make major contributions to mathematical biology or physical chemistry.</p>

<p>Anyway, I will add to my previous comments that it never makes sense to dumb yourself down for any process, even if it makes you look smarter to the outside world. It reminds me of the state science fair in junior high. I did a physics project which the judges kept saying must have been done by a college professor. I got second place to a project, "What is the best detergent?" The next year I improved the project and did even worse in the competition. So don't dumb yourself down in order to win awards and distinctions that are supposedly indicative of high intelligence.</p>

<p>Maybe MIT wants to give opportunities for those who don't have an advantageous background? MIT probably knew that hoplesslydevote, with his superior skills, would get into other prestegious schools. I think MIT would want to accept people who have the potential to do well in math and science, but has unfortunately had weak backgrounds --- and at the same time be a human being with various interests.
But then again, MIT accepted people with USAMO and USABO awards. Well, maybe MIT looks for a balanced freshman class. As for why hoplessly was rejected . . . I feel sorry. You should call up the admissions and hear what they say about you.</p>

<p>
[quote]
While Mollie is right that grantsmanship counts to some extent, I think that's only true at the margins. Mollie's grantsmanship would get her nowhere if the underlying ideas weren't sound, and important. And I'm pretty sure that some of my grants were "sold" solely by the ideas themselves, since I'm not too good at sales.

[/quote]

Absolutely, the underlying ideas have to be sound. Unfortunately, there are a lot of really smart people in science who want to pursue a lot of interesting ideas, and not enough money to fund them all, so the tip factors become critically important.</p>

<p>I see that as much of the point here -- that grantsmanship counts when you've made a solid case for yourself based on stats/ECs/contests/what have you. Sure, you've got great SAT scores and a stellar GPA. That's why you're being considered in the first place. Now give them a reason to admit you.</p>

<p>wow, wow, strayed away from topic too much. though it is great to read all these valuable information. keep the debate going.</p>

<p>I do not believe admission officers would concur on a mistake. They
would have had to agree to reject such a candidate and the reasons
must have been strong and documented given this age of litigation?</p>

<p>A borderline candidate could argue all the things being argued on this
thread, however someone with gold level in programming alongside the other
honors clearly was rejected for reasons not evident on this forum. </p>

<p>If someone with the kind of high stats being discussed is rejected at
MIT there is a clear message. It is not a subtle message, nor is it a
mistaken outcome. This has nothing to do with limited admits, being asian,
being a boy or being anything else....? </p>

<p>Here are a few lateral questions to consider:
[ul]
[<em>] Did he come across as being entitled at his interview?
[</em>] Did he have a similar tone (as in the above) in his essays?
[<em>] Did his recommenders hint at possibly arrogance/single dimensional
pursuit?
[</em>] Was he doing these individual competitions all the time or did he have
a life that included at least a few friends?
[<em>] Was he taking so many extra courses that he is not going to track
with his matriculating cohorts?
[</em>] Is he going to add to the cultural/multidimensional experience?
[<em>] Does he have a sense of humor or at least something that he
he believes passes for one- can he laugh at himself and feel
comfortable?
[</em>] Is he obsessed with competing?
[/ul]</p>

<p>@arwen15,</p>

<p>Let's revisit this discussion 37 years from now, when you will have my current perspective--assuming I'm still around then. Even as late as last year, I would probably have believed as you do--but last year I saw some admissions decisions up close, not for my relatives (about whom I can't be objective), but for friends' children and acquaintances' children, whom I have known in most cases since they were in kindergarten and, in a few cases, since their births. This gives me a better picture of them, I believe, than even a 25-page application can.</p>

<p>I understand why you might draw the conclusions you're drawing about rejected applicants with stellar qualifications. But your conclusions apply in none of the cases I know, and I'm reluctant to believe that I know all the outliers.</p>

<p>MIT's admissions committee is pursuing a particular admissions philosophy, and its members are entitled to do so. It does yield a few odd results. </p>

<p>Please consider that the sorts of remarks you have posted (above) must be at least somewhat hurtful to a baffled "rejectee," who is in fact a really, really, really good person, besides being really, really, really smart and really, really, really accomplished.</p>

<p>@molliebatmit/harvard</p>

<p>Help me out here? Just with regard to the last paragraph?</p>

<p>In this incredibly competitive year of admissions, noone is going to make it into every school to which he or she applies. The grades, stats, ECs, leadership, essays, recs and "MIT academic star" qualities that got my son into MIT EA (and other fine schools) got him waitlisted at Caltech. Didn't make sense to the people who know him at his school, either.</p>

<p>Sometimes a "no" is just a "no." For hopelessly, I agree that the rationale behind the decision seems difficult to parse, based on the info we have here on this forum. But the ad comm saw the rest of the app. We haven't. And sometimes, schools let a a great one get away.</p>

<p>Remember the dilemma: Everyone is above average. In this case, it's true and most applicants are way above average.</p>

<p>Fair doesn't mean equal with regard to limited-space admissions decisions. The process is excruciatingly difficult, and the results are never perfect. Adcoms fall in love with candidates and attempt to be advocates for them - and they're forced to leave X out of Y on the floor. I cannot comprehend how someone wires him/herself to do the job of an Adcom at places like MIT year after year.</p>

<p>I believe if you attempt to rationalize the "why" as to how a few got in and others didn't, it's an exercise doomed to failure. Face it, there's luck involved, lot's of it for many of those admitted. I don't like the term or connotation of "Harvardization," because I believe it attempts to put a face or structure on an imperfect process.</p>

<p>"And sometimes, schools let a great one get away."</p>

<p>I agree. I spoke with one of those kids in person yesterday, in fact. He would have been great at MIT. We could sit here and second-guess his application (Could his essay have been stronger? Could his recs? Should he have sent in more supplemental material?) but there is really no point.</p>

<p>Look, have you ever read a book that was a finalist for the Pulitzer prize? I love to read, and every year I read both the prize winner and also the runners up. And you know what? Sometimes I would have picked a runner-up for the prize. I've also served as chair of a national prize committee in my own field and frankly, sometimes the decision is an absolute toss-up.</p>

<p>When my daughter was a junior and began reading the MIT blogs, I also began to follow some of them. I remember reading the blogs when decisions came out that year, and in particular, I remember this post from a student on the "Not Admitted" blog:</p>

<p>"I didn't know that it would hurt so much."</p>

<p>Just a few words. So very much pain. </p>

<p>For some of the students not admitted, this is the first real setback they've experienced. Let's face it -- it's not like losing a soccer season; it's not in the same category as not winning an award at a science fair. It's a closed door. </p>

<p>A closed door -- as painful as it is -- can also lead to other paths, and this is my hope for everyone not admitted.</p>

<p>
[quote]

MIT there is a clear message. It is not a subtle message, nor is it a
mistaken outcome. This has nothing to do with limited admits, being asian,
being a boy or being anything else....? </p>

<p>Here are a few lateral questions to consider:
Did he come across as being entitled at his interview?
Did he have a similar tone (as in the above) in his essays?
Did his recommenders hint at possibly arrogance/single dimensional
pursuit?
Was he doing these individual competitions all the time or did he have
a life that included at least a few friends?
Was he taking so many extra courses that he is not going to track
with his matriculating cohorts?
Is he going to add to the cultural/multidimensional experience?
Does he have a sense of humor or at least something that he
he believes passes for one- can he laugh at himself and feel
comfortable?
Is he obsessed with competing?

[/quote]

....

[quote]

Please consider that the sorts of remarks you have posted (above) must be at least somewhat hurtful to a baffled "rejectee," who is in fact a really, really, really good person, besides being really, really, really smart and really, really, really accomplished.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The person we are talking about here has been accepted by Caltech. Caltech's application has a lot of questions regarding candidates personality, if he came accross as arrogant in his application, I don't think Caltech would've accepted him. </p>

<p>On anohter note, by reading MIT and Caltech's forumns here in CC (I know it may not represent the whole student body), it has been occured to me that people (addmitted/attending/alumni) in this two places do show different personality. Here in this forum people are "Loud and Proud" more out going type (or shall I say engineer type?). There people are 'Quite and Proud" more laid back type (or sholar type?). ... And I did see quite a few get into Caltech do not get into MIT, and vise verse. May be in some cases 'FIT' indeed play a role? </p>

<p>
[quote]

And I'm pretty sure that some of my grants were "sold" solely by the ideas themselves, since I'm not too good at sales.

[/quote]

From my own observation, usually people with extremly high academic ability are not good at 'sale'. It could also be that they don't want go out of their way to sale and believe the academic idea or achievement will carry its own weight.</p>

<p>I do believe that Mollie's point is an important one. Being qualified or even highly qualified is no longer enough. In the end, the selection committee will need to pick a certain percentage of applicants from each region, and where the line falls may sometimes appear arbitrary. In taht sense, it is very similar to grant applications. The NIH only has so much money and only a small percentage among the qualified applications will be approved. What makes your application being selected over another one may very much depend on how strong a case you are making.</p>

<p>While Mollie would certainly be able to comment on this better, from my meetings with admissions officers I understand that MIT generally takes a two pass process through its applications. </p>

<p>First, the reviewer looks at academic qualifications to make sure the applicant can make it through MIT's rigorous curriculum. With no easy majors, MIT can't afford to admits students who will fail advanced math or physics classes. This will weed out a certain number of applicants. The students that pass this phase get some form of academic score. A few with major academic awards get superscored.</p>

<p>Then MIT will seek out what makes the student a fit for the Institute. This is where a lot of people get confused and make claims or arbitrariness. While the process is holistic, it is far from arbitrary. Many admissions officers at MIT claim that they recognize a good fit when they see it and that there is very little disagreement between reviewers. Some form of score is then assigned for fit. </p>

<p>MIT knows what it wants in its candidates and it certainly broadcasts that message loud and clear through its president speeches, faculty, web site and school visits. It makes it a strong point that demonstrated creative ability is a highly valued characteristic for admission. At Harvard, the emphasis is more on leadership and the difference is substantial. At Chicago, it may be more intellectual curiosity and drive for learning. At Caltech, it may be more identifying students who will eventually pursue PhDs in the sciences. While some candidates may be a fit for multiple elite colleges, the parameters are distinctly different. </p>

<p>In the end, MIT, because of what it represents, likes to admit students at the extreme of academic and creative talent. Gold medalists in math competitions and winners at science fairs are heavily recruited. So are "extreme" innovators, students who may have actually created a device, filed for a patent, published an interesting paper, started a business. These students will both thrive at MIT AND will bring something unique to the Institute that furthers its mission. A student with a very high academic score, even an academic star but without evidence of creative skills, will be considered less of a fit than a student with a slightly lower academic score but clear demonstrated creative skills. </p>

<p>Some people argue that fit, or in MIT's case, creative talent cannot be detected in 17 or 18 year olds. I disagree. When I meet students at local high schools, I can easily recognize the students that would be a good match for MIT, and it is often not the valedictorians. If they are also academically qualified, they have a better chance of admission that other students, possibly higher ranked but who have no demonstrated innovative capacity. If they are not creative at 17, I doubt they will suddenly develop that capacity later in life. Some things you do not teach and are more part of your personality. There is a palpable difference between the MIT student body and that at virtually every other school. A few other schools may have as many academically talented students. None come close to having as many students interested in creating something new, whether in engineering or science.</p>

<p>
[quote]
started a business.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>lol, I did this and even wrote an essay (creation one) about it. Guess that essay failed.</p>

<p>CalAlum</p>

<p>that is one of the best posts i've read on the topic.. It really sums it all up..</p>

<p>Accepted stats for friend</p>

<p>Stats:
SAT: 2000(650M, 640 W, 710R)
SAT II: 710 Math 2, 700 Biology-E:
GPA: 3.9UW, 4.5W
Rank: 10/847
Other Tests (AMC, AP, IB): AP Scholar w/ distinction</p>

<p>Essays: Most likely amazing..he's a good writer
Teacher Recs: really good... had same teacher write my rec.
Counselor Rec: probably good
Supplementary Material: journal essay
Interview: N/A
Hook(recruited athlete, legacy, Nobel Prize): low- income under $35,000
Personal
Location: Houston, Tx
High School Type: public
Ethnicity: White/Asian
Gender: M
Other
Extracurriculars:
Speech and Debate- state finalist , national out round participant in LD debate
Student Council
Student body president
Honor Society President
YMCA volunteer
Church volunteer
Habitat for Hummanity
Awards: </p>

<p>AP Scholar w/ Distinction
School Awards
UIL District and region awards for Computer Science and Calculator</p>

<p>Advice? Commiserations? Feel like bragging?: He works like crazy ..He holds down a 25 an hour a week job because mom is on disability. He takes care of his family by himself.. His father is in jail... and he speaks like 4 languages.....</p>

<p>Congrats to everyone... I thought I would share my friends accomplishments...</p>

<p>Well, I wholeheartedly agree with the bulk of CalAlum's post, just not the main conclusion that this is why MIT admissions sometimes strays from admitting those with the most impressive stats and accomplishments.</p>

<p>I, too, think that if the recommendations rave about a student's creativity in class and ability to make insights, then that should be highly valued. </p>

<p>I also agree that having a prestigious award shouldn't make it automatic. I knew a guy who won a national science award for research in high school. He was an average student. In my judgement, he didn't have any more potential for future professional achievement than the rest of us. Even Westinghouse/Siemens winners aren't always that smart. (The Siemen's finalists in math and physics were typically super-geniuses, though.) In any case, their academic abilities could have been ascertained from performance in class (grades, recs) and scores. Some of my statements are based on my experience with people who won each of these awards. I was much more impressed by the USAMO qualifiers than the Siemens' finalists. Everybody I knew who was a USAMO qualifier and went to grad school got an NSF Fellowship, most often not in mathematics or even physics. So I would have a hard time rejecting a 2300+, 4.0 UW, USAMO qualifier. Add to that high performance in USABO, USNCO, and USAPho competitions, and I think it's unrealistic that you could find 1500 other people with more potential than that.</p>

<p>Further, I think part of the appearance of arbitrariness is that those people with personalities that match more with the extroverted personalities of the admissions staff have a higher probability of admission. I think the push for admitting bubbly, extroverted people was also bolstered by the rash of suicides at MIT in the late 90's. I think they overreacted.</p>

<p>@hopelesslydevote and piccolojunior, also to others in similar circumstances (I haven't thoroughly scanned this thread):</p>

<p>Take to heart collegealum314's advice . . . it will serve you well, in the long haul.</p>

<p>In the future, when decisions about admissions/hiring/grants are being made--within academia--I think you will find that the criteria differ from MIT's undergraduate admissions criteria, at least as far as I can tell. </p>

<p>When I wrote that grantsmanship makes a difference only at the margin, I meant that it is true for grant applications right on the fund/don't fund borderline. Mollie is definitely correct that "there are a lot of really smart people in science who want to pursue a lot of interesting ideas, and not enough money to fund them all." </p>

<p>However, with grant applications--at least in my experience--it is possible to have a proposal in which the science is so clearly important that grantsmanship is only a minor consideration. Please note that I'm applying the "clearly important" designation to proposals I've refereed, rather than ones I've submitted! The merit of the proposed research and the track record of the investigator weigh most heavily in the decision-making. (Grad students early in their Ph.D. programs don't have a long track record, and the application Mollie has referenced is somewhat different for that reason.) Most referees put in a lot of effort to differentiate between proposals on the basis of significance. I've never encountered personality-based commentary, while serving on National Science Foundation panels or elsewhere.</p>

<p>Business or entrepreneurship is different, but scientific entrepreneurship doesn't seem to be so markedly different from the above.</p>

<p>I don't know much about MIT admissions. But I do know with certainty that they make mistakes sometimes.</p>

<p>@collegealum:</p>

<p>While USAMO is impressive, I do not think it is fair to say that by having met a few USAMO qualifiers and a few science competition qualifiers, you can say that one is more impressive than the other. I think it does boil to a case by case basis. </p>

<p>Also I think that one of the places where MIT may be drawing kids from is basement hackers. Basement hacker types often don't have things like USAMO, etc, but many times their own private accomplishements are jsut as good if not more impressive. Not everyone is interested in participating in USAMO and Siemens.</p>

<p>Also, for people asking how did some kids with lower stats get in? Consider this option; that kid may have wasted a lot of time in HS thinking. I use to do this a LOT in high school. One week I would suddenly get very enthusiastic about radio. I'd spend day and night studying radio theory, how to build radios, trying to build radios, etc. I would learn tons and tons of deep stuff about radios, and then I would forget it, or I would drop it for a while because I realized taht some parts were too fuzzy and I didn't get them yet, etc. And then something else would pick up my attention. Now there isn't any USAMO'ish competition you can apply this too. It probably doesn't help on the SAT's. It distracts you from grades.</p>

<p>I think it's extremely important to admit these types of people to MIT. They don't pwn every exam or top all their classes, and they may not be able to solve any USAMO problems. But they are very curious and willing to go incredibly deep into whatever captures their interest. And they seem to have a history of eventually producing amazing results that just blow everyone away. </p>

<p>Sure you can get top grades and get USAMO and win every other competition, and this is very impressive. But you shouldn't be afraid to sometimes stop and try to teach yourself. Not everything in your education needs to be structured. And not everything in your education need result in on-paper success.</p>