<p>But point taken. At some schools there’s a big bump, at some (presumably where yield is high as a matter of course), not so much.</p>
<p>Right, but OP <em>did</em> get an FA offer, or at least a preliminary estimate he is happy with using as a basis for his decision, from the EA school, didn’t he? Or did I miss something… And if he did, couldn’t other people?</p>
<p>And one strategy discussed above, by several, is for OP to see if he can back out without resorting to the sanctioned FA argument, claiming reasons other than financial. If he can do it, and it works, can’t others? Of course the applicant would say the right things… “Since the time I applied I realize now that your school is not right for me after all, due to [insert BS reason]. I don’t want to be at your school, frankly”.
Yes it would be a violation of the agreement, but might one get away with it nonetheless?</p>
<p>At the end of the day are they really going to compel someone to attend who doesn’t want to be there?
And can they even compel it? It seems that their leverage requires withdrawal action by the EA school. What if the EA school does not really care that the ED school got screwed? Even more, could the possibility screwing the ED school, their competitor, perhaps be precisely why they gave the early FA information?</p>
<p>Sure one might get away with it but that doesn’t mean it’s right or I’d allow my own kid to do it. It’s a strategy that violates the agreement with the ED school.</p>
<p>It might be possible to cheat on an exam and not get caught - that doesn’t make it a good strategy to pursue for a variety of reasons I’m sure you appreciate.</p>
<p>And yes a few schools do give FA with EA as I said - 2 of D’s did, 4 did not. In S12’s case, none did.</p>
<p>I don’t think there will be any blowback to this student. If there are any problems, it will be for other applicants. My understanding is that applying ED requires working with the guidance counselor at high schools to make sure that the commitment is well-understood. It sounds like this applicant didn’t really understand how ED works, since he applied to a school that he didn’t even like and did not complete the financial aid forms on time even though financial aid was apparently the deciding factor. Someone dropped the ball here and if I were Cornell I wouldn’t give ED applicants a ‘bump’ in admissions until I was assured that the schools are doing a better job of explaining the implications of ED and why you should only use it for a school that you can at least stomach.</p>
<p>(This is exactly why you shouldn’t sign contracts with kids, by the way.)</p>
<p>@OHMomof2, I agree with you regarding the ethics, but its evident that not everyone agrees with us, or cares. I’ve seen a couple cases on CC recently where people seem to be shopping ED vs EA. In one case it only stopped because the sudent didn’t get into the ED school, but the intent seemed to be there.</p>
<p>It seems like EA schools that are giving FA estimates in time to be evaluated along with ED are pretty much asking for this to happen. And evidently there are some, Or at least one.</p>
<p>Usually, both would give a preliminary FA number. But OP didn;t sent Cornell the FA app by their deadline.</p>
<p>Parents sign the ED contract as well as the student. The parents should know better.</p>
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<p>I suppose, though, for families that need FA, getting an early acceptance without any FA info is not much of an acceptance at all, unless the school guarantees to meet full need and the family is OK with NPC results.</p>
<p>I believe UC is one such school so I am not sure why they give an FA estimate early. </p>
<p>Editing to add - I wonder how OP got an FA offer from UC but not from Cornell? Same paperwork required, I assume - the Profile. I guess UC didn’t require the 2013 return but Cornell did?</p>
<p>There are essentially four courses of action to my mind. One is that OP calls Cornell, lays all his cards on the table, and asks, will you let me out? I don’t see this as “gaming the system” or “cheating on a test.” The decision is entirely up to Cornell and they can say yes or no. It’s like a college president who has three years left on his contract, but he wants to leave early in order to take a job in government or Wall Street, whatever. The college says either yes or no. They work it out. Yes, there are indeed risks to showing one’s hand, but no course of action is risk free to OP at this point, and this seems the most ethical route to me since the decision is entirely up to Cornell. Who knows, they may even have their own reasons for releasing him from the ED commitment.</p>
<p>Second option is to tell Cornell “I’m not coming.” This to me is clearly unethical. It IS “gaming the system” and “cheating on the test” and it could potentially harm those who follow.</p>
<p>Third option is to hope for the hail Mary pass in which UChicago gives an outsized aid offer against a paltry offer from Cornell, so there is no question about OP’s legitimate inability to attend Cornell. This would be ethical, but magical thinking.</p>
<p>Fourth option is to suck it up and attend Cornell. I might be in a minority, but I see this as unethical. There is a much more deserving waiting list or RD student out there who would love to have OP’s place. I just don’t see how it serves anyone to have OP deny that student that spot, in order to serve a messed up system that benefits the universities at least as much as it does the students.</p>
<p>In my view the most fair system for students would be to have a single, universal application deadline. Students could apply to as many schools as they want, as long as the app and all financial info is in by, say, March 15. But this will never happen because the schools benefit too much from the ED system. </p>
<p>He DID game the system by signing a binding ED contract with Cornell, when it is apparent by his actions (not turning in FA docs) and him wanting to see if he could “get into an Ivy” that he did not apply ED in good faith.</p>
<p>“Parents sign the ED contract as well as the student. The parents should know better.”</p>
<p>In one of the cases it was the parent who was posting on CC.
There are people in this world with various ethics constructs, and that does not always change merely because they become parents.
Maybe what they think they know “better” is that the ED “commitment” may be toothless and can be gotten around such that it is unlikely to be enforced.</p>
<p>It still doesn’t make what the student or the parents did ethical, and they should be called out for their actions.</p>
<p>At the time he submitted apps, he was thinking of going to Cornell, no? I skimmed his other threads. Perhaps not as solidly committed as one ought for ED, but he seemed to have investigated the school and was thinking of actually attending. OK, he had 2nd thoughts soon after, when there was still time to pull out of the ED and did not so so. That may have been a mistake of inaction and just letting the marbles continue to roll. But so far, the unethical behavior is all in his mind. He is toying with courses of action. He has not committed any overt unethical behavior, yet. Soon perhaps, but not yet. People think of all sorts of things. They don’t always follow through on their thoughts, thank goodness. Most often we don’t know our friends and coworkers are plotting terrible things, because they keep their thoughts private, as he may well wish he had done, and in the end do the right thing. </p>
<p>He claims in some prior post that the late document submission was a genuine error, not part of a plan.</p>
<p>“It still doesn’t make what the student or the parents did ethical, and they should be called out for their actions.”</p>
<p>While I agree with you, I’ll play devil’s advocate for a second and pretend to be those parents. Because it’s fun.</p>
<p>In a business context, if party A and Party B enter into a contract, there is no absolute guarantee that either party will honor it. In fact the contract often specifies consequences if they don’t. It is not at all unheard of in business for one party to weigh the consequences, both contractual and indirect, of not honoring a contract, and breaking it if those are less honorous than complying with it. And when they do that, “ethics” will generally take a second place to maximizing shareholder profits. They don’t view a contract as an ethical matter, they view it as a commercial matter which includes, in its calculus, the possibility of not honoring it.</p>
<p>I have seen and heard of instances where companies have dishonored contracts, when they felt it was to their economic advantage to do so. To quote a party in one of those instances, “Sometimes it’s just cheaper to litigate”.</p>
<p>In politics one occasionally hears of countries breaking treaties. The breakers probably never consider themselves on the wrong side of the broader ethical issue, as they construe it. Even if they are on the wrong side of the treaty. I’m sure a broader ethical argument can be constucted about the ED process (one-sided benefit to the colleges, yadda yadda yadda) by someone motivated to justify their breaking the contract.</p>
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<p>I agree. The existence of ED is for colleges, not for students. </p>
<p>Maybe that’s a little bit of the reason I didn’t favor D participating.</p>
<p>Posting to inform you that I’ve decided to just attend Cornell. It’s honestly not worth dealing with the angst and ethicalities that come with this situation. In truth, both institutions are very prestigious, and it is truly is an honor to be accepted to both. As a previous poster said, it’s not the college that I attend that determines my success, but what I do. I plan on making the most of my time at Cornell and achieving some peace of mind for the holidays.</p>
<p>@Sorool, regardless of what you (virtually) post in this forum, I certainly hope that you actually will follow course 1 of the four options @MidwestDad3 posts in his post #168. Talking it through with an admissions counselor at Cornell is probably the best course of action. And, yes, it is worth the angst and ethicalities that come with this situation. You need to resolve it and not just capitulate.</p>
<p>@DmitriR, pretty certain that the OP understood the implications of ED.</p>
<p>There’s not much a counselor can do if a kid understands the implications of ED fully and decides to game the system anyway.
In this case, though, I’m glad that the OP will honor his ED commitment (assuming that fin aid is enough).</p>
<p>Good luck at Cornell.</p>
<p>@MidwestDad3: if he attends Cornell, a spot opens up at UChicago for another kid. It’s not like the spot just disappears.</p>
<p>@ItsJustSchool, I think that option 1 is the dumbest course of action. If you think it through, that course of action does no one any good and may harm the OP and his HS. </p>
<p>If OP is indeed willing to attend Cornell if they won’t release him, then an early conversation with them is not a bad idea. Because he can frame it as, ‘Of course I’ll attend if you don’t release me’ and ‘I wouldn’t want to do anything that might cause problems for future students at my HS’ and ‘I’m just exploring possibilities since finances are difficult and UofC is offering such great aid’ so that it can be construed as polite hypothetical discussion in case Cornell won’t budge.</p>
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<p>Nope. University of Chicago no longer requires the CSS Profile since implementing the No Barriers Program this year. EA applicants complete the U of Chicago financial aid form…which presumably gives enough info for an accurate estimate.</p>
<p>I would be interested to know what happens at Chicago once the FAFSA is filed in January. What if the figures on the Chicago form do NOT align with the fafsa and 2014 taxes. Will the aid be adjusted? One would think so.</p>
<p>I’d the student turns Cornell down…that student is done with Cornell for this admissions round. What happens if the actual Chicago net price is higher than the estimated award indicates? </p>