<p>I hear that at Harvard, 1/3 of the students are athletes, 1/3 are legacies, and the rest are really the top students. My daughter is certainly competitive in the last category, but there is such an element of chance, that the whole thing seems ridiculous. Add to that some very attractive merit aid offers (full tuition at Vanderbilt), I can't help but wonder if buying into this (literally) isn't a bit absurd. I mean, I know several folks who graduated from Harvard (athletes), who are not terribly impressive intellects, yet they all speak of the doors that were opened by attending Harvard. Its terribly hard to see the absurdity of the whole thing, while still wanting the best for my D.</p>
<p>One may think that the doors opened from Harvard will more than pay for the time spent there.</p>
<p>H's financial aid plan is nothing to scoff at either. For many students with the new plan (if they keep it up in the crappy economy) Harvard tuition may be just as cheap as going to you local state school. And you get the Harvard name on your diploma to impress all the "prestige whores" out there in the world.
Truthfully my D and I went on a visit there and she just liked the school. She felt the tour guide was very down to earth and somebody she could see herself hanging out with, there are tons of course offerings, and it is in Boston. She didn't expect to like it because of all the stereotypes about Harvard snobs etc., but on the visit it did not feel that way at all.</p>
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hear that at Harvard, 1/3 of the students are athletes, 1/3 are legacies, and the rest are really the top students.
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<p>You overestimate the proportions of legacies and athletes, and grossly grossly underestimate the proportion of really top-notch students. If you really ask around (and the kids are straightforward), at least 9 out of 10 kids you talk to will have credentials that make your jaw drop.</p>
<p>Telpirt, I was in the same position that you are twice in the last three years; both of my daughters wound up at Harvard. Here's what I've found through their experiences.</p>
<p>First of all, 42 teams x an average of maybe 20 athletes per roster would mean that probably < 1/8 of the students are athletes, some of whom are also Harvard-caliber athletes. And it's gotten very difficult for legacies in recent years - the admissions process has become far more of a meritocracy with students covering the full diversity of backgrounds and socioeconomic levels. So yes, the student body really is remarkable, not only for being top students but because of their incredible array of talents. </p>
<p>Harvard, occupying the top of the applicant food chain, gets something close to right of first refusal on the most talented, motivated, and interesting applicants from around the globe. They handpick a class that is multinational, ethnically diverse, brilliant, breathtakingly talented, engaging, etc. Then they set resources in front of them (world-famous speakers, faculty who are leaders in their fields, well-connected advisors, live-in faculty House masters and tutors), turn them loose, and offer stipends and subsidies to help make things like travel, programmatic ideas, and outside lessons easily affordable. As a result, you have the most spectacular extracurricular culture imaginable, all run by students. Students pull together professional touring-quality performing arts, run the only student-sponsored homeless shelter in the country, get funds to put on summer high school enrichment programs overseas, operate a Model Congress program that draws high school teams from around the U.S. and the world, etc.</p>
<p>In my older daughter's first two years there, she's traveled to South America and to China on Harvard-sponsored programs, getting most of her way paid each time. She's been hired as a peer advisor. Many of her world-renowned professors and some of the visiting speakers she's met have inspired her to reevaluate her life priorities. She's joined a singing group and toured several cities. She's become a student manager for a program that tutors the middle-school aged children of new immigrants. She joined the leadership team of the Model Congress program and presided over a congress of hundreds of top high school students. </p>
<p>I was on campus last weekend for Junior Parents Weekend and met her faculty House Master. He and his wife have lived in an apartment in the residence hall for 13 years, hosting students in his living room virtually every night of each major semester - remarkable for any fulltime college prof, but this one has a Nobel Prize!</p>
<p>The one area in which Harvard life may differ is that it requires students to reach out and take the initiative for what they want or need. Harvard students tend to be handpicked for initiative, so they not only tend not to need to be guided to resources, they'd probably perceive attempts to hand-hold them as condescending.</p>
<p>I suppose that any Harvard admit could arrange full scholarships elsewhere - fortunately, if your family income is <$180,000 a year, Harvard financial aid is so generous that cost shouldn't have to be a factor. A full ride at Vandy is not to be taken lightly - I think Vandy's a great university, and it's on our HS son's interest list. In our experience however, we've found Harvard to be the greatest bargain we could have imagined.</p>
<p>^^^ Sorry . . . that should have read "< 1/8 of the students are athletes, some of whom are also Harvard-caliber intellectuals." I'm past my bedtime. :)</p>
<p>Little-known fact about Harvard: the only required class is a seminar in which they teach you how to crap gold. After that, the rest of your life is made.</p>
<p>op makes the false assumption that athletes and legacies are naturally less qualified than top notch students. but harvard isnt a big time D1 school where any random track star or football star can get in on a whim. ive known recruited athletes to harvard and yale that make you want to shoot yourself cuz theyre so qualified, in EVERY regard -_-.</p>
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I hear that at Harvard, 1/3 of the students are athletes, 1/3 are legacies, and the rest are really the top students.
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<p>I'm afraid that what you've heard isn't even remotely close to the true proportions- that's not even close to my experience here, or the experience of anyone I know. It's just an unfortunate stereotype.</p>
<p>There are plenty of reasons one might not to want to go to Harvard, but these myths about the undergraduate population aren't among them.</p>
<p>gadad has very aptly described the H experience. If you are a go-getter, you will be able to make the most of your experience at H.
Also, I do not know of any full-ride at Vandy. D had a full-tuition and sometimes with the aid from H or even Y, It sometimes turns out cheaper or about the same, depending on the family's income.</p>
<p>It means you went to a great college and got a head-start on the rest of the 22-year-old population, but it doesn't mean you'll be successful in life, and it sure as hell doesn't mean you're going to be happy in life, or that you're going to be a better person than the kid who graduated from the state university.</p>
<p>Telpirt, my daughter is an athlete, so I do hear you about the absurdity of it all. There are thousands of brilliant, super qualified, and extremely talented kids who submit applications designed to convince Harvard to accept them. Meanwhile, equally or perhaps even less qualified students who can run, hit, throw or kick, have Harvard and other elite schools courting their favor, even begging them to come. </p>
<p>Here's my question: when these athletes say yes, but because of the time constraints imposed by their sports commitment or perhaps due to their lesser intellect as a recruited athlete (and don't flame me; of course many are just as smart, but not all are), they end up at the bottom of the Harvard heap, what happens then? How does the bottom quartile fare in the job market and grad school admissions?</p>
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<blockquote> <p>...they end up at the bottom of the Harvard heap, what happens then? How does the bottom quartile fare in the job market and grad school admissions?<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Q: What do the call the person who graduates last in his class at Harvard?</p>
<p>A: A Harvard graduate.</p>
<p>I appreciate all the well considered opinions and experiences. Honestly, I've done such a good job at saving for the kids' college that financial aid is not an option. I have told all of my kids that any money that they save by attending state schools or by merit scholarships will be available for grad school. I definately see my D attending grad school! So, ironically, since I am in a position to pay for Harvard...the merit scholarships are actually worth more! Don't get me wrong, I am definately leaning towards encouraging her to take any IVY offer that she really wants...hell, at this rate, I'm never going to retire anyway. There is something about the status thing that goes against my grain (I drive a Subaru, not a BMW). If attending Harvard (or Princeton, which actually might be more her style) would get her a better educational experience, it's a no brainer (no pun intended). My daughter loves school, and has worked her butt off through some very difficult times...she absolutely deserves it. But $36K X 4 years (the Vanderbilt tuition...no, its not a full ride) for a sticker on the back of my car or a line on her resume which will be overshadowed by many lines below it?</p>
<p>I attended a 6 yr med program at BU. All of the students in this program had turned down one or more IVYs. All these kids talked about for the first year was their SAT scores and which schools they turned down, so I got pretty disugusted with the status thing. Personally, I always got a kick at of telling people that I went to BU. Nevertheless, the undergrad education was definately inferior to that which I would have obtained elsewhere. I do understand that Vandy is a way more challenging environment than BU, I just have no way of judging between something like V and H (or P).</p>
<p>Telpirt,
We were in a similar position last year and D almost accepted the full-ride to Duke when by some miracle her ivy-dreams were answered by the arrival of the Harvard fin aid package.
If you are not getting a break and D doesn't have any big outside scholarships, then it makes sense to accept the merit aid from Vandy. If grad school is in the future, then you definetly want to save for that.
D was prepared to take the merit aid until she recvd the aid package from H.</p>
<p>Obviously, those of us on the H board aren't a thoroughly objective sample, so it might be helpful for your D to hear from someone who had a similar option and chose Vandy. Two years ago, a poster called "Evil_Robot" was pursuing his dream of Yale, got in, and then had to decide whether his dream was worth the difference between the cost of Y and V for free. He chose V, and every post of his that I've seen since has made it clear that he's delighted with the choice he made. It may be worth doing a search for his recent posts and possible PMing him.</p>
<p>I realize that the actual question in the OP's post was more detailed, but the title is like asking, "what does it really mean to win the lottery?" lolz</p>
<p>There's a great thread, currently on page 8 of this board, entitled "The concept of 'luck' in Harvard admissions." In it, a student who's close to the admissions process reveals that while H admissions is certainly a "longshot," it's not a "crapshoot." The latter is purely a matter of luck, and the author lays out (very astutely) what one might do to shorten the odds and reduce the element of luck.</p>
<p>^ Oh, I apologize. I wasn't likening Harvard <em>admissions</em> to "the lottery." For me, getting accepted would feel like I had won the lottery, even if it wasn't random at all :)</p>
<p>@Telprit - I was in a similar situation to evil_robot (and potentially your D) and ended up at Harvard... have had no regrets. Feel free to PM me if you'd like my personal story / take on things.</p>