OPINION: Do non-STEM majors deserve their poor reputation?

College Majors
1

I was at a family gathering recently, and a few uncles decided to talk to me about my scores, grades, potential colleges, and whatnot. Invariably, as the conversations continued, they ended up with, “what major?”. Though, “I dunno.” is the answer I use for most conversations, I decided to be honest, and said every time, “I love learning basically anything, but I’ve most loved history, definitely enough to major in it. I think I’d have to double major for that, something more marketable.”
Their responses were as invariable as the path of the conversations: Most of them skirted around their answers, but the last said it most directly, “I think you’re better than that. You’re not afraid of work… You could do so much more!”

Uh, what does that mean? More WHAT? XD

They all attempted to steer me into talking about the sciences. Am I smart enough to major in Bio, Chem., or Physics? Probably. Engineering? Maybe. Business? Most definitely.

I’m just not interested in them. Life would be a lot easier if I were though…
I feel that’s true of many people considering majors in the humanities. I don’t believe that it’s a matter of laziness, of intelligence, or of ability. In fact, I’ve felt intellectually challenged just as much in my AP history courses as my honors sciences, albeit in a different way. For the sciences, it’s memorizing and perfecting a method. For the histories, memorization is the first step of mastery, not the ends, but the means. That knowledge must be used to create logical, respectable, and defensible arguments and statements for real progress. This trains critical thinking, analysis, and argumentation, mostly, These skills are universal, but not as marketable as knowing stoichiometry or mechanics.

STEM vs. Humanities/Social Sciences is not a simple issue for people interested in the latter, but can be expressed as a series of conflicts.

Job-skills training vs. life skills training
Money vs. Passion
Respect vs. Satisfaction
A degree that works vs. making your degree work

That’s just my opinion on it.

Despite this, every person I have told my potential major to has dismissed it as some kind of laziness, foolhardiness, or inability. As I’ve said, this seems intensely unfair. What are your opinions. State your major, intended or completed. Do you believe that non-STEM majors are “the easy way out”? Are they truly degrees that lead to nowhere fast, jobless majors? And most subjectively: Is it wise to forgo what one loves in pursuit of a more profitable degree?

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Yeah, no, non-STEM degrees are still highly needed. Here’s an article about how tec companies are discovering the benefits of liberal arts. http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2015/07/29/liberal-arts-degree-tech/

I’m a math and CS major. I definitely would not be able to cut it as a history or english major; I’m not good with those subjects and am not a great writer at all. They’re not necessarily easier majors; they just use different skill sets. Always go for the degree one loves.

I actually went to a STEM magnet high school and we had a big debate (fight) about this on the alumni facebook group. It seemed like the majority respected humanities majors (there were even some humanities majors in the group), but there were a couple individuals that thought their STEM or business degrees were superior; they got shut down pretty quickly by the rest of us because they were being absolute jerks about it.

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Hi, it depends on how important it is to you to get a job, once you graduate from College. Can you afford to attend college and not get a job right away, since humanities majors usually go on to grad school. What do you plan on doing with your History degree? Teach? Yes, lots of corporations hire non-STEM majors for STEM jobs, but many many many more won’t even look at your resume unless you have a STEM degree - unless you have some work experience in that field.

Think long and hard about spending tens of thousands of dollars, and not being able to get a job right away out of college. How important is that to you? Right now, it may not be, but after 4 years of college, it likely will.

Its very likely relatives are speaking from experience… I myself would not hire a college grad with no business or hard math/science degrees out of college. I know a lot of kids who graduate from college and are miserable because they are not working in their field because of lack of a marketable major. But some independently wealthy kids are just fine - they go off to grad school for an MFA or Master’s for teaching. You need to try and see ahead to the job market.

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“STEM” is too broad a classification to really make generalizations about. For example, in terms of job and career prospects that people seem to be concerned about when making this comparison, consider that biology is the most popular grouping of majors which are under “STEM”. But bachelor’s degree graduates in biology tend to have poor major-specific job prospects, probably because there are so many of them compared to the number of jobs where their major-specific knowledge and skills are desired.

Additionally, job markets in fields like CS, engineering, and finance (where math and statistics majors often go) can be subject to economic and industry cycles. Some people get unlucky and graduate just when the industry that would ordinary look for people in their major is in a downturn and not hiring. Of course, if many of the good major-specific job prospects are in industries you are not interested in (e.g. a statistics major who is not interested in the finance industry, or a geology major who is not interested in mining, oil, and gas), then your job prospects become more limited.

It would be wise for students in majors where the major-specific job prospects are not that good to prepare for the likelihood of seeking and taking jobs that typically require a bachelor’s degree but are not picky on the major (this could include many in “business”), and aggressively looking for summer jobs and post-graduation jobs early. Choosing out-of-major courses whose content can be useful anywhere (e.g. some statistics, some advanced writing and communication, some computer science, etc.) may be helpful. Frugal spending habits can give you more options, since you can live comfortably on lower pay levels than if you have spendy habits.

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http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html indicates that, as one approaches mid-career level, the top people from almost all college major backgrounds do well pay-wise. But there is significant variation between majors for the median and below average pay levels. Note that some majors have a much larger variation in mid-career pay than others; compare physician assistant (narrow range) to philosophy (wide range).

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STEM is not a magic bullet- but it has been so much in the media that people treat it that way. IMO, it is a bit lazy intellectually. As @ucbalumnus points out, there are plenty of bio majors who haven’t been able to do much with their degree.

Fwiw, I know the history majors that I know who graduated this summer are starting jobs in consulting and finance and starting grad school in law and journalism. There is a history/italian double major who just landed a job that is (to her) a dream job in the offices of a major opera house. One is going on to do a PhD. D1 is entering her final year of a history/politics double major, with an offer from a top strategy consulting firm in her back pocket. All of these students did internships during their college career that led to these places, and to be fair they went to a name-brand university, which does make a difference.

It is certainly ‘easier’ to lay out a career path in many STEM subjects. But just b/c there is a straight line doesn’t make it better for employment: - D2 is entering her 3rd year of a physics major, and is now looking at grad schools. She is probably 6-7 years out from being properly employed (not counting grad school stipends)- and if she wants a job in a university she will find that there is a shortage of jobs there. Her much-loved physics professor- with a PhD from a top university- has just landed a steady job- at Yale- after years of short-term teaching posts. D2’s college loved her, but didn’t have a permanent post to offer her.

So, IMO: it’s hard any way you slice it. Doing what you love makes the hard parts better. No matter what path, the ones who think ahead, take chances, look for opportunities improve their odds for a good outcome. And the ones who show up for class, and start thinking about what next in late Junior/early Senior year decrease their odds. No matter what the subject.

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http://mugdown.com/2015/04/14/why-liberal-arts-is-super-dumb/

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Here’s a little exercise:

Imagine our human condition without all of the work STEM people have done through the ages.

Imagine our human condition without all of the work non-STEM people have done through the ages.

(Since non-STEM work occurred on a large scale before STEM work did, a look at history can help with the first imagining.)

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Let the sparks fly, indeed.

Well, it seems like a few of my statements were correct.

There is general consensus that STEM majors are not the mightiest in all aspects, especially not in all STEM fields. The “raw” life and physical sciences majors seem to need grad. school, much like their humanities rivals, to be competitive in the market. Then it must be accounted for that the average non-academia PhD. in a science probably will end up with a heftier salary than someone with a PhD. in, say… Philosophy (unless that Philosophy major also picked up a JD…which would be crazy!).

It should be noted that many common STEM degrees seem not to require immediate grad. school though. Though I know it happens in Engineering, of the 4 engineers I know, none of them have surpassed a Bachelor’s degree. (Yes, small sample, leave me alone.) Computer Science, another booming major, leaves its Bachelor’s holders pretty well-set. It is conceivable that a Comp-Sci. major could never return to school and have a respectable income and relatively secure position.

It should be mentioned that there are more degrees that don’t require grad. school to be competitive on the STEM side of the board. Though I know it happens in Engineering, none of the 4 engineers I know has surpassed a Bachelors. (Yes, small sample, leave it.) Computer Science majors are pretty well-set with a Bachelors as well.
It seems more or less even here on whether or not the non-STEM major ALONE is a good idea, but there seems to be general consensus that in a better market / with cheaper education / in an ideal world, that these degrees are worthwhile and necessary to the good of society. That seems to be pretty much what I expected/wanted to hear.

@guineagirl96, thanks for the input. It’s interesting to hear this from a science major. Really, of the people that have discouraged me from a degree in the humanities, all have been business finance or engineering majors. Also, “Fight” seems to be the most proper word for this debate. This is the most civil discussion on the topic I have seen yet! XD

@SuzyQ, and @collegemom3717, It does not surprise me that there isn’t a good market within their fields. With the degradation of the education and academia fields, by way of cut-benefits ant attacks on tenure, humanities majors lost a great career avenue, or at least, were strongly discouraged from it. In addition, the law field, for those that can get in, is quickly becoming saturated, according to our schools career counselor, the BLS, and the only attorney I’ve met. (Small sample, leave it.) Thus, they’re all but forced to move from their fields, but how hard is it to migrate? It seems like they’re odds are based on making the degree work. They cannot expect having it to help, but rather have to hunt down internships and connections to whom to SELL the degree. An engineer doesn’t have to explain to a firm the usefulness of his degree, in the manner a history major would have to for an analyst’s job.

@UCBAlumnus, you’ve always got such great things to say, ya’ know that? You made a great point in saying that the vocational-type degrees may not be of much use if a person’s not interested in all the possible positions it offers. It seems the only “catch-all” field is business, however. That would make it hard to compete without serious internships/outside training/business grad. school if outsiders are competing with business graduates.

@IWannaBe_Brown and @jjwinkle, that’s great stuff. Those are pretty simple ways of framing the argument, but I like them because they agree with me and they made me chuckle. lol

Thanks to all of you, I wonder if this will catch more attention? I hope so.

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Many professional STEM people indulge in a side passion in history/humanities at a high intellectual level as a hobby.

I don’t know of any professional history/humanities people who are capable of indulging in STEM at a high intellectual level as a hobby.

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All of life is that same struggle - passion vs physical need. Why would choosing a major be different?

I will say that the best history prof I ever had fought for Patton in North Africa and was a military governor of occupied Austria after WWII. He made considerable history before he taught any. I’ve always felt that should be the default method of becoming a history professor. It kind of wrecks the armchair type.

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Indulging “…a side passion in history/humanities at a high intellectual level” is not generally something people do as a hobby. There is a huge difference between reading a book – even a history book – for pleasure and engaging in sophisticated literary analysis at a high intellectual level. I programmed computers and did sophisticated software development for well over a decade and found that my philosophy and literature classes in college were far more demanding than was learning how to code.

I personally am sick and tired of the humanities and social sciences being denigrated at every turn in our society. As is the case with STEM subjects, humanities and social sciences come more easily to some people, less so to others. They require a different skill set that should be celebrated – and remunerated (!) – at the same level as STEM fields.

I very much appreciate the actor John Lithgow’s analogy “no STEM can reproduce and sustain itself without a bloom… Without beauty, creativity, and the deep, sustaining truths of history, philosophy, and literature…STEM learning is joyless.” He elaborated on this metaphor at the 2011 National Medals of Arts and of Humanities:

“Picture a flower—a big bright flower in full bloom. The flower’s stem is, well, STEM! Science, technology, engineering, and math. It is the superstructure, the infrastructure, the support system of the flower itself. And the arts and humanities? Why, they’re the blossom of course—the source of the flower’s beauty, fragrance, and identity, the visible mark of its health, and the wherewithal for the flower to reproduce itself. The stem is functional, strong, and essential. But pare away the blossom and the stem has no purpose, no function, no value. In time it will wither and die. It cannot survive the loss. So much for STEM. I know, I know. I’ve taken this way too far. I have not only strained a metaphor, I have practically strangled it to death. But here’s the point (and I just bet that it stays with you). The blossom is what we love about a flower. It’s what inspires us. It’s what engages our senses and our emotions. It is the reason we plant the flower in the first place. And yes, like the arts and the humanities, it’s what gives us joy.”

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I can barely follow the articles my friend who is doing a PhD in classics writes (let alone come up with the analysis) and I was a bio/classics major pursuing an MD/PhD (PhD in biology).

I know plenty of humanities people who pursue STEM hobbies: Cars (engineering), poker (math), gardening (life sciences), billiards (physics), and cooking/mixology (chemistry) to name a few.

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@50N40W “All of life is that same struggle - passion vs physical need. Why would choosing a major be different?”

Agree with this 100%.

If one has excellent financial support from their family, then choosing a major that is less practical (from am immediate employment perspective) because less of a problem. Its the low/mid tier college student in the low/mid tier college that has chosen Art History, Music, etc… as a major, and needs to work right after college - that may have the regrets. The idealistic choice as a college freshman, may seem like an impractical (or silly) choice looking back. Money can always solve these problems - so if you your parents are there for you, go for Humanities!

I think the snotty comments about humanties majors likely come from a place of “you made an impractical choice and won’t ever get a paying job - so you are silly” vs “your major is so easy and you chose it because you are not so bright”.

I agree that we are being very narrow with the definition of STEM… for example many marine bio majors are also lacking in viable job prospects in their fields. Kids have to think long and hard about their personal situation when making these choices.

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That may be a reason why students at less selective universities (who also tend to come from less well off families) are more likely to choose explicitly pre-professional majors (which are not necessarily “STEM” – business is an example of a popular pre-professional major that is not “STEM”) rather than liberal arts majors (both “STEM” and non-“STEM”). Those from well off families have more of a family safety net to allow them a more extended job search at graduation, and the top end students who tend to go to more selective universities are more likely find a job even with majors that do not have specific job prospects. The top end students who manage to get into elite universities may find considerable consulting and finance recruiting attention regardless of their majors.

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You have asked an unanswerable question. There are as many answers to it as there are people who have to make it. Some of us make and then regret later decisions we made.

For me personally, I was never going to be happy in life if I couldn’t become independent from my parents and able to support myself and a family well. I didn’t grow up with an upper middle class lifestyle, but I wanted it for myself and the family I planned to have. So that, along with assessment of my own abilities and limitations, led me to a certain practical major and career path (accounting). I worked for a Big 4 accounting firm and am now a tax partner with a regional accounting firm.

There are ways to combine what you like studying with a career path. For example, history along with political science and economics are common pre-law majors. This is just a shot in the dark from reading your post, but you may have the interest and the aptitude for law as a career.

Be careful in listening to the pundits opining on what career field is hot and what isn’t. If you are truly passionate about something and you are also truly good at it, there are typically going to be opportunities for you. Just because someone is saying there are too many lawyers and too many pharmacists right now, for example, doesn’t mean that those who are anywhere near the top of their graduating class aren’t graduating and getting good jobs. Believe me - they are.

I wouldn’t choose something that makes me miserable or I have no interest just for the sake of practicality. That is a sure path to a life of regret.

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Not actually true. In fact, most humanities majors go directly into the workforce after getting their undergrad degree, where their starting salaries are lower than (most) STEM-field graduates, but earnings 10 years out are much closer.

Also, if you went into, say, chemistry and were good at it but hated it, how long do you think you would successfully last as a chemist? That’s one of the things people forget when they talk about how lucrative a degree in X is—well, yeah, for those who enjoy it enough to continue to pursue it. For those who get into it and then move into another field? Not so much.

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This discussion has caused me to realize that philosophy is functionally aligned with mathematics (logic), history is functionally aligned with science (the collection of observations and interpretations of what has happened), language with computer science (communication) and business with engineering (building of infrastructure for people to operate in), and, so, might be better categorized with their STEM counterparts.

The division of disciplines into STEM and non-STEM seems to be based on a human perception of immediate utility. Mathematics inherently is a liberal art, only being treasured by immediate-utilitarians, it would seem, because it’s necessarily used in science and engineering. History is valued less than science, because it is perceived that what can be got from knowing the record of human activities is small compared to what can be got from knowing the properties of the world and the non-human record of activities of the world. (Immediate-utilitarians would perhaps exclude paleontology, archaeology and astronomy if they were to take their division of more critical vs. less to a subdiscipline level.)

Also, the STEM/non-STEM thinking may derive in part from the perception of the STEM disciplines being arcane and harder to master than the non-STEM ones, which may derive from their being newer. We’ve been interacting with our fellow humans (hominids) for millions of years, and we perceive age-old human activities such as speaking with each other, understanding each other and making records to be easy, intuitive, and the relevant aptitudes are likely by now to be well-incorporated in our DNA.

Quite aside from the earnings and the ease and security of employment issues, it may be that we like to see our younger generation achieve in STEM rather than in non-STEM, because it is thought to be harder and, therefore, achievement in it more notable.

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Th 80’s movie, “The Flamingo Kid,” had a scene where a young man was told by his father, " Son, there are three things in life: What a man loves, what he’s good at, and what he can make money at. if that man is lucky, he finds something with a little of all three."

It’s an otherwise forgettable movie, but those paraphrased words stuck in my mind.

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[QUOTE=""]

History is valued less than science, because it is perceived that what can be got from knowing the record of human activities is small compared to what can be got from knowing the properties of the world and the non-human record of activities of the world.

[/QUOTE]

We could phrase it differently.
“History is not as financially rewarded as science, because the tangible value of history is hard to establish, but the tangible value of a cell phone, electrical power, or something like polio vaccine is not.”

Generally we more readily exchange money for goods and services than we do for theories, analyses, and other less tangible things. That doesn’t mean those other things should be ignored by the science types, but a “Whole Person” would study both - also meaning your history major really ought to have a solid understanding of both calculus and Newtonian physics. And your science majors would speak two languages as well as be able to discuss literature, music and art - not to mention root causes of something like the Spanish American war.