Origin of Life

<p>
[QUOTE]
What knid of fossils do u expect single celled organisms and invertebrates to leave? Fossils are usually formed by bones of living things. At least harder parts like trunks,branches etc. Invertebrates dont even have bones. If they had any hard parts, they must be shells or something. Are there any shell fossils?

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I'm not a paleontological expert, but invertebrates must leave some sort of fossil- probably imprints- or else we would not know of the Cambrian explosion at all.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Just because u cant find intermediates does not prove creationism. It's just a flaw in evolution.

[/QUOTE]

No, it does not "prove" creationism. However, such lack of evidence harms the case for evolution, thereby strengthening the case for creationism. </p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
It clearly shows that mutations occur in spurts foolowed by long gaps where there isnt any significant change.

[/QUOTE]

That may be so. Even if this spacing of mutation is the case, the sheer number of mutations required to go from a single-celled organism to a complex vertebrate means that we should have found more fossil evidence of the intermediate mutations.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Just because u cant find intermediates does not prove creationism"</p>

<p>If a "universal ancestor" did not converge to form millions of species of living organisms then that means all species were created.
homie is offline

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</p>

<p>Creationism cant be the only other explanation. There must be others. Avida proves a lot about evolution. Read that article and u'll be thinking differently. Creationists are facing grave danger to their theory due to this software.</p>

<p>I'm going to make what I feel is a logical proposal, though no one would ever adopt it.</p>

<p>Reverse the amount of funding given for research in evolution and creationism for five years. At the end of those five years, I'm willing to bet that it will be the evolutionists who are ridiculed and the creationists who are believed.</p>

<p>I think it is silly for creationists to try to defeat evolution in a scientific context (i.e. use science to disprove it). Rather, they just need to say "Ok, we just need to have faith that there is a God that did it all." That is a much more compelling argument.</p>

<p>"I think it is silly for creationists to try to defeat evolution in a scientific context (i.e. use science to disprove it)... That is a much more compelling argument."</p>

<p>why though?? religion isn't based on blind faith. religious people dont just say " God did it because he is God." and if science provides information to disprove evolution, why shy away from it?</p>

<p>


Whoa. Run that by me again. Isn't "blind faith" the primary tenet of, well, every major world religion? Science and religion are capable of coexisting peacefully, but the moment that religion infringes on science is the moment it all comes toppling down. Religion is faith. Religion is a moral code. Religion, if reinterpreted, is an explanation for that which is unexplainable by science.</p>

<p>As far as G-d is concerned, faith is blind. Anything else is circular.</p>

<p>Read Angels And Demons. Then u'll know abt religion being based upon pure faith. Religion has always tried to prevent the growth of scientific developments. Also stories like Jesus walking on water and Moses splitting the seas etc are all beyond science. In hinduism there are way more unbelievable stories. Why cant anyone do any of htose things today. Dont tell me we dont have enough faith. </p>

<p>Anyway, till evolution was proposed, only creationism was believed to be true. Evolution emerged from less than scrap. Darwin's ideas were greatly opposed. But today there are a hell lot of evolutionists, i.e. the creationists were converted. Thats tough enough. That means evolution has a strong enough logical basis.
Till evolution challenged creationism ppl were convinced abt creationism through stories and stuff. Why didnt ppl do any research then - they had over a 1000 years. The church would've surely funded research on creationism. Gladly too. The only problem is - where do u start to research creationism? Only after evolution came, ppl tried to prove creationism by disproving evolution as they are still doing today. So, u cant really do any explicit research on creationism. It just has to disprove any other theory of origin of life. Then ppl say creationism is true as u cant show any facts to disprove it just as u dont have any facts to explicitly prove it.</p>

<p>Because they didn't have all of the necessary tools back then.</p>

<p>Example: moon dust
If the solar system really were billions of years old, the moon should be buried in several feet of dust. NASA scientists designed the Apollo lunar craft with special gear so that it wouldn't sink into the dust. Then, they come, and lo and behold, there's only 1/4 inch of dust! Of course, there are many explanations for this...you could argue that some incident blew all of the dust off of the moon...my argument is that the solar system just isn't that old...so which explanation is more contrived?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Even if this spacing of mutation is the case, the sheer number of mutations required to go from a single-celled organism to a complex vertebrate means that we should have found more fossil evidence of the intermediate mutations.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We know that there are many intermediates between single celled organisms and vertebrates. There are invertebrates, Colonised single celled organisms, many species between single cells and vertebrates still exist today. Now, u are asking for all the intermediates. Thats quite impossible. Earth was quite catastrophic till recently. There are many cases in which these fossils must've been destroyed. We know most of the intermediates between the chimp and man. So, there must quite enough proof for other organisms too.</p>

<p>"We know most of the intermediates between the chimp and man. So, there must quite enough proof for other organisms too."</p>

<p>Did you remember to skip Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, and all of the other non-links?</p>

<p>Cro-Magnons were better than Neandrethals. They also lived during the same period. But Cro-Magnons lived longer.
Scientists have many theories on disappearance of neandrethals and cro-magnons.
1)Cro-Mangnons fought with the neandrethals and defeated them. Neandrethals became outcasts and due to their low redproductive rate, finally got extinct. Then the modern human species wiped out the cro-magnons.
2) This one is opposite of the first theory. Cro-Magnons and Neandrethals met and bred among themselves to form humans.</p>

<p>Anyway, neandrethals and cro-magnons were basically in europe and ppl believe that modern humans evolved from Africa and migrated to the other parts of the world. There was a show abt this on discovery where one scientist went all around the world taking gene samples. He compared these gene smples to very old human samples and those of africans to find out in what route man migrated from Africa. I haven't explained it very well here but it was highly succesfull.
Another thing is that, why would God have created Cro-Magnons and Neandrethals and then just allowed hem to perish. In fact why have animals become extinct if God had created them. What did He create them for then?? How does creationism explain this?</p>

<p>Cro-Magnons are virtually identical to humans. As such, creationists believe that they are humans who just happened to live in caves.</p>

<p>How can Neanderthals be our ancestors if they had larger brain capacities? Is being too smart bad in natural selection? Creationists' view: Neanderthals are merely humans with different diets (deficient in some vitamins, more than sufficient in others)</p>

<p>Creationists' view: all extinctions have come about through the intervention of man. God allows this to happen, just as he allows tragedies to happen to man. Of course, in order for this to work, it has to incorporate the VERY unpopular theory that dinosaurs were merely exotic lizards in hyperbaric conditions.</p>

<p>@Tanonev:</p>

<p>
[quote=<a href="http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/moondust.html"&gt;http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/moondust.html&lt;/a&gt;]

The Claim</p>

<p>According to some Creationists, the earth gets millions of tons of dust per year from outer space. Therefore, the moon also gets a fair bit. If the moon is five billion years old, then it should be covered in 50 or 100 feet of dust. It isn't. Therefore, the moon must be much younger than scientists say.</p>

<p>Notice that this is not a claim based on the Bible. The specific number of tons per year is quoted from the scientific literature.</p>

<p>The Facts</p>

<p>The infall of dust is one hundred times less than these Creationists say it is. This has been known since about 1963. The argument has been kept alive by not quoting from scientific articles written after 1960.</p>

<p>More Detail</p>

<p>In the 1950's, Hans Pettersson went to the top of a tall mountain, ran some air through a filter, and then measured the dust in the filter. He concluded that at the very most, 15 million tons of dust was arriving yearly from outer space. He guessed that not all of his dust was from space, so he thought that 5 million tons was a more likely figure. He wrote an article about this for the February 1960 Scientific American.</p>

<p>1960 was also the year of President Kennedy's promise to put a man on the moon. NASA got a lot of money, and started up a lot of committees. One of the committees pointed out that they should make a measurement IN SPACE of space dust. This was done, and McCracken and Dublin announced (at the 1963 Lunar Surface Layer conference) that the earth gets a piddling 18,000 to 25,000 tons per year. At the 1965 conference, the photographs taken by the Ranger probe were shown, and it was agreed that the moon didn't look dusty. In May 1966, Surveyor I landed on the moon, and the issue was settled. The engineers designing the Lunar Lander were told to give it short legs. A landing spot was chosen in the rocky uplands, just in case lowlands and valleys had pools of dust.</p>

<p>In 1974, Henry Morris started the Moon Dust argument. In his book he said, on page 151-152:</p>

<pre><code>The best measurements have been made by Hans Pettersson, who obtained the figure of 14 million tons per year.
...
(Before the moon landings, there was considerable fear that the men would sink into the dust when they arrived on the moon, but no comment has apparently ever been made by the authorities as to why it wasn't there as anticipated).
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<p>There are two inaccuracies in the first sentence, and one in the second sentence.</p>

<p>In the second (1985) edition of the book, Morris produced a completely astonishing number, 200 million tons a year, and referred readers to "G.S. Hawkins, Ed., Meteor Orbits and Dust, published by NASA, 1976". This document (actually published in 1967) does not contain that number. Apparently Morris had an unnamed "creationist physicist" calculate the number, and he calculated it wrong.</p>

<p>Richard Bliss of the ICR has since produced another number, a million tons, this time giving a reference to "COMITE Speciale De I'annee Geophysique International, Moscow, August 1985". That sounds pretty recent, until you realize that the International Geophysical Year was held in 1957-1958. The committee report was published in 1958, not 1985.</p>

<p>In 1989, Walter Brown produced two references (to Stuart R. Taylor and to David W. Hughes) and from them he calculated 2,000 feet of moon dust. This is a very strange number, since Pettersson's measurement gave 100 feet as an upper bound. Schadewald tried to repeat Brown's calculation, and came up with one inch of dust.</p>

<p>Creationists Snelling and Rush have documented the situation, and agree that the moon's dust is not proof of a young earth. However, many other Creationists have published the Moon Dust claim, and some still do. It's on the Web today.</p>

<p>NASA and the USSR have not ignored this technical issue in the decades since landing on the moon. It is, after all, relevant to the health of satellites and space stations. (In 1998, more than 600 satellites were orbiting the Earth.) There have been theoretical calculations. There have been measurements done by shining lasers into space. There have been measurements based on the chemistry of deep sea sediments. And NASA put up a satellite, the Long Duration Exposure Facility, LDEF. It went up in 1984, and they retrieved it in 1990 to study the amount of damage from years of tiny impacts. LDEF gave us a figure of 40,000 tons per year - a long way from millions.</p>

<p>Once again, the Moon Dust argument is not based on the Bible. It is a purely scientific argument, based on calculation and on the evidence in the publicly available scientific literature. (NASA is a civilian agency, and its studies are available in libraries.) The current scientific estimate is that the moon gets about an inch of dust per billion years.</p>

<p>For more information:</p>

<pre><code>The Moon Dust FAQ (has a really good reading list)

The Age of the Earth has a chapter describing the Moon's surface, and how it has been dated.

Old Earth Arguments FAQ

Footprints in the Dust: The Lunar Surface and Creationism, Shore, Steven N., Creation/Evolution Issue XIV (Fall 1984), pp.32-35 National Center for Science Education

Walter Brown and the Moon Dust, Schadewald, Robert J., NCSE Reports Vol.10, No.3 (May-June 1990), p.16

Moon Dust and the Age of the Solar System, Andrew A. Snelling and David E. Rush, Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal, vol. 7 #11, 1993, pp. 2-42

The Soviet-American Conference on Cosmochemistry of the Moon and Planets, 1977, NASA SP-370, (Vol. 2), pp. 571-664.

Soils of the Past, Rettallack, G. J., Unwin Hyman 1990, ISBN 0-04-551128-4, pp. 295-301.
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<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This article is confirmed by dozens of other sources.</p>

<p>The moon dust argument is seriously outmoded.</p>

<p>Evolution of the horse:</p>

<p>The species listed as being the evolutionary chain leading to the horse appear to follow a trend: they get bigger and slowly look more like the horse (think one of those morphing pictures).</p>

<p>HOWEVER: why does the number of ribs jump arbitrarily between links?</p>

<p>
[quote=<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html%5DFor"&gt;http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html]
For</a> many people, the horse family remains the classic example of evolution. As more and more horse fossils have been found, some ideas about horse evolution have changed, but the horse family remains a good example of evolution. In fact, we now have enough fossils of enough species in enough genera to examine subtle details of evolutionary change, such as modes of speciation.</p>

<p>In addition to showing that evolution has occurred, the fossil Equidae also show the following characteristics of evolution:</p>

<p>1.</p>

<pre><code> Evolution does not occur in a straight line toward a goal, like a ladder; rather, evolution is like a branching bush, with no predetermined goal.

Horse species were constantly branching off the "evolutionary tree" and evolving along various unrelated routes. There's no discernable "straight line" of horse evolution. Many horse species were usually present at the same time, with various numbers of toes, adapted to various different diets. In other words, horse evolution had no inherent direction. We only have the impression of straight-line evolution because only one genus happens to still be alive, which deceives some people into thinking that that one genus was somehow the "target" of all the evolution. Instead, that one genus is merely the last surviving branch of a once mighty and sprawling "bush".

The view of equine evolution as a complex bush with many contemporary species has been around for several decades, and is commonly recounted in modern biology and evolution textbooks.
</code></pre>

<ol>
<li><p>There are no truly consistent "trends".</p>

<p>Tracing a line of descent from Hyracotherium to Equus reveals several apparant trends: reduction of toe number, increase in size of cheek teeth, lengthening of the face, increase in body size. But these trends are not seen in all of the horse lines. On the whole, horses got larger, but some horses (Archeohippus, Calippus) then got smaller again. Many recent horses evolved complex facial pits, and then some of their descendants lost them again. Most of the recent (5-10 My) horses were three-toed, not one-toed, and we see a "trend" to one toe only because all the three-toed lines have recently become extinct.</p>

<p>Additionally, these traits do not necessarily evolve together, or at a steady rate. The various morphological characters each evolved in fits and starts, and did not evolve as a suite of characters. For example, throughout the Eocene, the feet changed little, and only the teeth evolved. Throughout the Miocene, both feet and teeth evolved rapidly. Rates of evolution depend on the ecological pressures facing the species.</p>

<p>The "direction" of evolution depends on the ecological challenges facing the individuals of a species and on the variation in that species, not on an inherent "evolutionary trend".
3.</p>

<p>New species can arise through several different evolutionary mechanisms.</p>

<p>Sometimes, new species split off suddenly from their ancestors (e.g., Miohippus from Mesohippus) and then co-existed with those ancestors. Other species came into being through anagenetic transformation of the ancestor, until the ancestor had changed appearance enough to be given a new name (e.g. Equus from Dinohippus). Sometimes only one or a few species arose; sometimes there were long periods of stasis (e.g. Hyracotherium throughout the early Eocene); and sometimes there were enormous bursts of evolution, when new ecological opportunities arose (the merychippine radiation). Again, evolution proceeds according to the ecological pressures facing the individuals of a species and on the variation present within that species. Evolution takes place in the real world, with diverse rates and modes, and cannot be reduced to a single, simple process.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>A Question for Creationists: Creationists who wish to deny the evidence of horse evolution should careful consider this: how else can you explain the sequence of horse fossils? Even if creationists insist on ignoring the transitional fossils (many of which have been found), again, how can the unmistakable sequence of these fossils be explained? Did God create Hyracotherium, then kill off Hyracotherium and create some Hyracotherium-Orohippus intermediates, then kill off the intermediates and create Orohippus, then kill off Orohippus and create Epihippus, then allow Epihippus to "microevolve" into Duchesnehippus, then kill off Duchesnehippus and create Mesohippus, then create some Mesohippus-Miohippus intermediates, then create Miohippus, then kill off Mesohippus, etc.....each species coincidentally similar to the species that came just before and came just after?</p>

<p>Creationism utterly fails to explain the sequence of known horse fossils from the last 50 million years. That is, without invoking the "God Created Everything To Look Just Like Evolution Happened" Theory.</p>

<p>[And I'm not even mentioning all the other evidence for evolution that is totally independent of the fossil record -- developmental biology, comparative DNA & protein studies, morphological analyses, biogeography, etc. The fossil record, horses included, is only a small part of the story.]</p>

<p>Truly persistent and/or desperate creationists are thus forced into illogical, unjustified attacks of fossil dating methods, or irrelevant and usually flat-out wrong proclamations about a supposed "lack" of "transitional forms". It's sad. To me, the horse fossils tell a magnificent and fascinating story, of millions of animals living out their lives, in their natural world, through millions of years. I am a dedicated horse rider and am very happy that the one-toed grazing Equus survived to the present. Evolution in no way impedes my ability to admire the beauty and nobility of these animals. Instead, it enriches my appreciation and understanding of modern horses and their rich history.</p>

<pre><code>"All the morphological changes in the history of the Equidae can be accounted for by the neo-Darwinian theory of microevolution: genetic variation, natural selection, genetic drift, and speciation." (Futuyma 1986, p.409)

"Because its complications are usually ignored by biology textbooks, creationists have claimed the horse story is no longer valid. However, the main features of the story have in fact stood the test of time...." (Futuyma 1982, p. 85)

"When asked to provide evidence of long-term evolution, most scientists turn to the fossil record. Within this context, fossil horses are among the most frequently cited examples of evolution. The prominent Finnish paleontologist Bjorn Kurten wrote: 'One's mind inevitably turns to that inexhaustible textbook example, the horse sequence. This has been cited -- incorrectly more often than not -- as evidence for practically every evolutionary principle that has ever been coined.' This cautionary note notwithstanding, fossil horses do indeed provide compelling evidence in support of evolutionary theory." (MacFadden 1988, p. 131)

"The fossil record [of horses] provides a lucid story of descent with change for nearly 50 million years, and we know much about the ancestors of modern horses." (Evander 1989, p. 125)

"It is evolution that gives rhyme and reason to the story of the horse family as it exists today and as it existed in the past. Our own existence has the same rhyme and reason, and so has the existence of every other living organism. One of the main points of interest in the horse family is that it so clearly demonstrates this tremendously important fact." (Simpson, 1961, p. xxxiii)

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</code></pre>

<p>There isn't a trend like you mentioned. Read above. I also suggest you visit the website for a more in depth analysis of horse evolution, replete with scientific (and creationist) references.</p>

<p>"A Question for Creationists: Creationists who wish to deny the evidence of horse evolution should careful consider this: how else can you explain the sequence of horse fossils? Even if creationists insist on ignoring the transitional fossils (many of which have been found), again, how can the unmistakable sequence of these fossils be explained? Did God create Hyracotherium, then kill off Hyracotherium and create some Hyracotherium-Orohippus intermediates, then kill off the intermediates and create Orohippus, then kill off Orohippus and create Epihippus, then allow Epihippus to "microevolve" into Duchesnehippus, then kill off Duchesnehippus and create Mesohippus, then create some Mesohippus-Miohippus intermediates, then create Miohippus, then kill off Mesohippus, etc.....each species coincidentally similar to the species that came just before and came just after?"</p>

<p>Limited variation...many species were lost after the Flood, and new species arose from the pair of horses on the ark. New species can arise, but there has been no change in "kind" to date...</p>

<p>
[quote=<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#observe%5D%22Evolution"&gt;http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#observe]
"Evolution</a> has never been observed."</p>

<p>Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years. Even most Creationists recognize that evolution at this level is a fact. What they don't appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor.</p>

<p>The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The "Observed</a> Instances of Speciation" FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.</p>

<p>Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn't been observed. Evidence isn't limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.</p>

<p>What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is becoming tiresome, tanonev. Every time I quote, reformat, and comment on a response to your claims, you come back with an unrelated, equally unfounded, one. Please research your claims before making them. It takes no work to make a fallacious claim. It takes a substantial amount to disprove said claim with evidence.</p>

<p>Very well, I'll post something related to my last one. Limited variation:</p>

<p>Take the bat. It supposedly evolved from some sort of shrew. However, in order to go from shrew to bat, there has to be webbing between the "finger" bones and a lengthening of said bones. Now, unless we have really punctuated equilibrium (shrew gives birth to bat), there has to be some transitional creature with either somewhat lengthened finger bones or the creation of webbing. In either case, we have a transitional creature that is LESS fit than the original shrew, so it would be promptly eliminated.</p>

<p>Natural selection is linked to limited variation: changes can only occur if the resulting creature is more fit than the original. Within a certain area around a species, this is quite possible. However, at a certain distance, there arises a virtually insurmountable barrier of unfit cases. The chances that these unfit cases can survive long enough to reproduce and complete the change are slim, especially since many animals are hardwired to destroy their unfit offspring.</p>

<p>"What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution. "</p>

<p>The problem is that even if we DID witness a frog turn into a cow, no one would believe it...so what's the point?</p>

<p>@tanonev: You're taking frog/cow out of context. I will not respond to that. As for bats. . .</p>

<p>
[quote=<a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6647"&gt;http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6647&lt;/a&gt;]

A change to a single gene allowed bats to grow wings and take to the air, a development that may explain why bats appeared so suddenly in the fossil record some 50 million years ago.&lt;/p&gt;

<pre><code>Bats have been an evolutionary enigma. That’s because the oldest fossil bats look remarkably like modern ones, each having wings formed from membranes stretched between long fingers, and ear structures designed for echolocation. No fossils of an animal intermediate between bats and their non-flying mammal ancestors have been found.

Now Karen Sears, at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver, has discovered why intermediate forms may be missing in the fossil record. In a bid to understand where bats’ specialised finger digits evolved from, Sears compared their embryological development with that of the finger digits of mice.
…
Sears believes that bats began to evolve when this one gene became activated. Although it is a small developmental change, if it allowed the ancestors of bats to grow extended digits it could explain how bats evolved flight so rapidly, Sears told the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology meeting in Denver. Relatively few transitional forms would have existed just briefly before being displaced by more advanced forms.

[/quote]

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<p>Science is an exploration. What we do not know now, we may know in five, ten, fifteen years. The Bible is static. What it fails to adequately explain now, it will fail to adequately explain forever.</p>