Overhaul of Graduation Requirements in Texas. Changes to testing coming too.

Parent Cafe
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<p>emilybee- again, just by your placement of parenthesis “gifted” says a lot. Again I think it demonstrates that you think gifted education is elitist. If this is your take- that’s OK. We can all have different perspectives and respectfully disagree. I do value education for gifted kids for all socio-economic levels.</p>

<p>We do need to have a cohesive national policy but I also think that local districts need to have more say in how to implement standards, curriculum etc…</p>

<p>I’m not sure how the immigrant population in Finland differs from the US. My husband traveled to Finland several times on business and it was his impression that their population was much more homogeneous than ours.</p>

<p>I am a first generation college graduate, and my mother was an immigrant. English was not my first language. I feel that despite our flaws, we give so much opportunities to our children. Sure there are barriers and things we can improve on but also so much we can take advantage of in our communities. I work with immigrant families on a daily basis. So many of them are grateful for these opportunities.</p>

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<p>I live in Texas and these are some of the programs that my district has:</p>

<p>Elementary: gifted - pull-out class starting at 1 hour/week in kinder and increasing to 1 day/week in 5th grade.
underachieving - pull-out time usually during English or math.</p>

<p>Middle: gifted - specific English class for gifted students.
underachieving - additional English or math class in place of an elective.</p>

<p>High: gifted - nothing specifically for gifted
underachieving - special reading classes (taken in addition to regular English or ESL English classes)</p>

<p>In addition, there are after-school study sessions to help with STAAR readiness in all subjects.</p>

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<p>I think it sounds great. Oh, and the state universities here do not require the distinguished plan. My child could not even do the distinguished plan due to a lack of course availability.</p>

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<p>TexasT…I wonder if you are perhaps in my district. It sounds like mine. And there is no gift math program at all. They can just take classes a little ahead of grade level starting in 6th grade, but never more than 1 yr ahead of grade level. If they get further ahead, they are at risk of having no math for a year.</p>

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<p>In Finland, tax dollars intended for education are not spent on sports. It all goes to the teachers. Administrators are kept to a minimum while the teachers are given plenty of time to teach, and plan lessons and so on. All teachers are the cream of the crop and have a minimum of what is equal to an American Master’s degree. Finland also doesn’t have the diversity we have that contributes to the difficulties in the US. Also, in the US, we are educating a lot more people than Finland. (Finland has way fewer children than the US).</p>

<p>I would love to have our schools run like that. But, in America, education will never be put first, ever. It just won’t happen.</p>

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<p>If diversity is the only reason the Finnish system wouldn’t work here, then Norway - which is similar in demographics to Finland, but have a test based system like we do, wouldn’t be mired in the middle of the pack (like we are.)</p>

<p>I put gifted in quotes because, imo, in reality there are very few truly gifted children. We just have a terrible case of Lake Wobegon syndrome. We think they are gifted because the curriculum have been so watered down or have the misguided notion that since little pumpkin is so smart of course he is “gifted.” </p>

<p>My district actually got rid of the gifted program years ago for this very reason even before the proliferation of testing. Are there some kids who are smarter than others? Absolutely. But that does not make them gifted. </p>

<p>Yes, Imkh, in Finland their system is very decentralized. Lots of autonomy and flexibility in how and what they teach is given to the teachers. I find it interesting that a European socialist state has implemented an educational system with is decentralized while the US is going full steam ahead into making our system much more centralized.</p>

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<p>I don’t think anyone said diversity is the ONLY reason. Norway has their reasons, we have ours. I am still having trouble following your logic that since the US and Norway are both in the center of the pack they must have the same issues. It is possible the Finland model could be much more easily applied to Norway than to states in the US, regardless of where each of us is in the pack.</p>

<p>I tend to fall the other way in relation to children being “gifted”. I believe EVERYONE is gifted. It’s a matter of what those gifts are. Some are gifted at math, logic, writing, comprehension, scientific application, music, art, theater, mechanical aptitude, effective altruism…We all have gifts. I always chuckled a little at the elitist sound of the title that makes it sound like some children are gifted and some are not. But it’s whatever. There needs to be an avenue of accelerated study for those that need the challenge. I never have gotten too hung up on semantics.</p>

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<p>And actually Norway’s education system doesn’t have too much in common with ours. There are EXTREME differences.</p>

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<p>I’m sure Norway would be more successful if they adopted the Finnish model. just like I am sure we would also. </p>

<p>And the only reasons I have seen on this thread for why we cannot do what they are doing is because we are so different. </p>

<p>Why do you believe the Finnish system would not work here?</p>

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<p>I have given MANY reasons why the Finnish model most likely will not work here. Again, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t run pilot programs to try to see what we can learn from them.</p>

<p>Reasons:
Differences in mindset - Egalitarian vs. individualism</p>

<p>Differences in authoritative structures and laws as a result - for example, private schools are illegal in Finland.</p>

<p>Differences in populous - homogenous vs. EXTREMELY diversified racially, religiously, economically (especially in the case of Texas)</p>

<p>Differences in approach to discipline (largely because of the two above)</p>

<p>Differences in feeling about religion (as a result of the whole homogenous thing) - religion is taught in school, each in their own religion or ethics if they are not religious. Most people in Finland share a religious background. That would be difficult to pull off here. </p>

<p>Many more miles of red tape here (because of local answering to state, answering to federal - which they do, even though they say they don’t, to get grants, and also because about half of our states are actually larger than Finland, some MUCH larger.</p>

<p>It would take a HUGE paradigm shift to accomplish a true Finnish approach to education here. I think small pilot programs may be a beginning. Starting at a local level, adapting some Finnish ideas as necessary could be very interesting. But there are many obstacles to be considered. I don’t think it’s impossible to eliminate the obstacles, but I don’t think ignoring them, and simply calling them excuses is going to work.</p>

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<p>“Differences in mindset - Egalitarian vs. individualism”</p>

<p>So because we place such a high value on individualism and not egalitarianism we believe in a system that constantly subjects out kids to standardized tests and push for standardized curriculum versus a system which promotes local and teacher autonomy. Okey-dokey. </p>

<p>So because we have private schools our public schools cannot do the things they are doing in Finland? Why? </p>

<p>So because we don’t teach religion in our public schools we cannot do the things they are doing in Finland? Why? </p>

<p>Miles of red tape and having to answer to the federal gov’t is a symptom of our centralization of our educational system. </p>

<p>Again, what does size have to do with anything? Most elementary school classrooms - regardless of the size of the school district, size of the state, are in the mid 20’s.</p>

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<p>Emilybee - When you say “The things they are doing in Finland”, what exactly are you referring to?</p>

<p>“So because we place such a high value on individualism and not egalitarianism we believe in a system that constantly subjects out kids to standardized tests and push for standardized curriculum versus a system which promotes local and teacher autonomy. Okey-dokey.”</p>

<p>No, that is not what I said. The Finnish approach is towards egalitarianism - same curriculum for everyone, everyone treated the same. That is a big paradigm shift for people in the US. I said NOTHING regarding standardized testing.</p>

<p>“So because we have private schools our public schools cannot do the things they are doing in Finland? Why?”</p>

<p>No, that is not what I said. Finland, as a whole, people too, have gotten behind their public school system. In the US, if we don’t like it, we leave it. The whole of the populous has not bought in. This difference in philosophy can cause problems. WHICH things that they are doing in Finland? As I have said before - of course we CAN. The question is will we. I don’t think it’s likely because of the differences I’ve stated.</p>

<p>“So because we don’t teach religion in our public schools we cannot do the things they are doing in Finland? Why?”</p>

<p>Well, religion is taught in public school in Finland. That is one of the things they are doing in Finland. So no, we can’t do that.</p>

<p>“Miles of red tape and having to answer to the federal gov’t is a symptom of our centralization of our educational system.”</p>

<p>Exactly. The way our whole system is set up is very different than that of Finland. Their system all works together to produce the results they get. The egalitarian approach, the physical education requirement, the infiltration of the arts in most every subject, the teaching of religion, the focus of school IN SCHOOL, the support of the largely like-minded populous - all of these things have brought them great success. Will we do these things - probably not. CAN WE? Sure. But it would take many fundamental changes, so it’s not likely. </p>

<p>“Again, what does size have to do with anything? Most elementary school classrooms - regardless of the size of the school district, size of the state, are in the mid 20’s.”</p>

<p>Small areas are easier to change than large areas. Small things are easier to change than large things. It is almost always so. Especially when one of the reasons for success is that a majority of the people being affected appreciate the change and want the change.</p>

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<p>and round and round we go…</p>

<p>I get it, you think because of who we are as a society their educational system won’t work here. I just fundamentally disagree with that whole premise. </p>

<p>I will agree, however, that we will never implement such a system. It requires changes which will take time and we are too lazy.</p>

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<p>Emilybee,</p>

<p>Are there very specific things that you would emulate in their system?</p>

<p>You keep saying their system will work here. What, specifically, do you think will work?</p>

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<p>Cromette, I honestly don’t know why you keep asking me this as I’ve answered it before. You were even going to vote for me for Governor! I assume you have read the articles I posted and are already well versed in the Finnish system, so know exactly what I would do if it was up to me.</p>

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<p>LOL! I think I know, but then I get confused. :slight_smile: I just want to make sure I understand which aspects of their model are the most attractive to you.</p>

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<p>Let’s set the cultural, socio-economic differences/excuses between states in the US and Finland aside for a minute. This is the system that the Finnish have:</p>

<p>Less homework
More creative play
Private schools are illegal
Little to no standardized testing
Teachers independently test progress of students
Teachers with higher prestige, better pay and more responsibility for their students
Principals that are responsible to deal with teachers who are insufficient
Focus is not producing star performers but evening out social inequality
Focus not on competition and choice, but on equity and cooperation
Free school meals
Easy access to healthcare, psychological counseling and taxi service if needed
Individualized student guidance
Teachers especially selected from the top 10% of the nation’s graduates to earn a master’s in education
Many schools are small enough for teachers to know every student
Schooling does not begin until age 7
School days are shorter
Physical Education and Religion class are mandatory (Ethics class for the non-religious)</p>

<p>Emilybee, so I understand - You like all of this list, and you would be excited about giving it a shot “no matter what the cost”? That was what Finland did. It was so important to them that they decided they were going to make it happen at any cost.</p>

<p>I think this situation, if duplicated AT ANY COST in the US would yield similar results as it has in Finland, intelligent, healthy happy students who are focused on cooperation and equity and evening out social inequality rather than individualism and competition.</p>

<p>What would be the cost?</p>

<p>Parents needing to find additional off-hours care for their kids
Reworking of the way schools receive funding from the several governing bodies
Limiting school choice to public schools - Making Private schools illegal
Higher taxes, because we’re going to have to pay teachers and principals much more
Constantly refocusing anxious parents and unruly students on equity and cooperation
Higher taxes, because we’re going to have to furnish all students free school meals
Higher taxes because we’re going to have to furnish all students with access to healthcare, psychological counseling and taxi service if needed
Higher taxes because we’re going to have to furnish all students with Individualized student guidance
Higher taxes, because we need to reduce school sizes and classroom sizes
Revisit our stance on religion in schools - to be equal and fair, we will have to allow teaching of major religions and make provisions for ethics class for others. </p>

<p>Will it work? Probably. Is it worth it? Maybe. What do you think Americans will say?</p>

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<p>I think Americans will say no because they don’t want to pay taxes for anything. </p>

<p>I’m just glad I’ll be dead in 30 or so years.</p>