Oxbridge a possibility? If not, how can I make it one?

International Students
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<p>Hey all. I am new to this thread, so please take it easy on me. I am very sorry in advance if anything I write is pointless or naive or has been asked before. I am also typing on an iPhone, so I apologize for any brevity and/or errors.</p>

<p>I am currently a Junior at Phillips Academy, a highly selective private secondary school in Andover, Massachusetts. I suffer from Nonverbal Learning Disorder, a condition which has greatly hindered my respective performances in math and science. With that said, I have a verbal IQ of 139, which qualifies my reading/writing proficiency as near-genius.</p>

<p>Let's start with the bad. At Andover, we are graded on a 1-6 scale, with a 5 being considered an A and a 6 being more like an A+ (it varies from class to class). In math and lab sciences I have consistently scored 3s and 4s (basically B's and C's). I am in the school's lowest Physics level right now (though I am averaging an A in the class), and have only taken two years of lab science because I was forced to drop Chemistry my sophomore year after receiving a 2 fall term. I have been a year behind in math for the duration of my time at Andover, and dropped the subject for good last term after completing the school's bare minimum graduation requirement (Precalculus).</p>

<p>I cannot stress enough that I have been extremely dedicated in these classes, but my ability to do well in them was rendered basically nonexistent by my learning disorder. I also love science, and actually originally wanted to pursue chemistry (before it handed my ass to me), so I will take term contained sciences (environmental science, bioethics, and so on) for all of next year to ensure that I complete three years of Andover's science curriculum. Similarly, I hope colleges will consider that the Chemistry course I dropped was the equivalent of a freshman honors program at any typical college, and that although I dropped math as quickly as possible, my completion of Precalculus still puts me alongside most of my peers outside of Andover. In short, I have worked my ass off and I know I am a capable student, but I have a diagnosed learning disorder that was never properly addressed by my school, and it has really screwed me over.</p>

<p>Now for the good: my record in English at Andover is almost perfect. I received below a 6 on a writing assignment at the school only once. I also maintain about an A average in Spanish and an A- in History, both of which are equivalents to typical AP courses, and have received 6's in almost every philosophy, art, and music class at the school. Furthermore, this term I qualified to conduct an Independent Project with a faculty mentor for full course credit: an unusual honor for an 11th grader. The focus of the IP, which I created and designed myself, is the composition of critical and analytical essays on Intersectionality in the 1970s Feminist Art Movement. Despite being a Junior, I am also on the senior editorial board of four of the academy's leading journalistic and literary publications. I also do a lot of extracurriculars, but I heard European universities don't care about that.</p>

<p>Due to my proficiency in writing and literary analysis, I hope to attend a university that allows me to rigorously pursue one and only one field of study (in my case English). Because of this, the "Oxbridge" schools (but mostly Oxford because I know I can only apply to one) seem like a very good fit. I am afraid, however, that Oxford will not even consider me due to my poor record in math and science. As I said before, my difficulties were primarily a result of a learning disorder coupled with incredibly challenging math/science curriculum, and even with my condition, I was a straight A math and science student in middle school, and would have done fine in my public high school's AP classes.</p>

<p>As for SATs: I read that Oxford requires a minimum of 700 in each subject to achieve a 2100+ overall score. I know that I scored no lower than a 10-12 on the essay and a 750-800 on both English-based sections, but I am afraid my math might have been in the high 600s. In other words, I have the combined 2100+ total but probably NOT the 700 in math. Are they not even going to consider me unless I get my math scores up?</p>

<p>I have only been challenged by one English class in my entire time at Andover (which arguably has the best English program of any secondary school in the United States), and I know that there is no English class at Oxford that I will not be able to handle (though I'm not stupid: I fully expect to be challenged within an inch of my life). I know my top choice Ivy League schools (Yale, Columbia, Brown) most likely will not accept me due to my GPA. I am afraid that despite being a good fit for Oxford, the school will not even consider me, and I will end up going to one of my safety schools (St. Andrews, Edinburgh, NYU, Trinity College Dublin).</p>

<p>I know that if I have to take a lot of math and science, any Ivy League or Oxford would be incredibly difficult for me. But if I am able to pursue only English, after my lack of a challenging experience at Andover, I am worried that I will not be challenged at any of my safety schools.</p>

<p>Thanks so much for taking the time to read all of this. Any advice on applying, opinions on Cambridge v. Oxford, or suggestions about other schools to look at would be greatly appreciated. The only other information I can think of to I've you guys is that I am a liberal Democrat, a self-taught musician in four instruments, a passionate social justice advocate, something of an artist (just recreationally), and neither money nor financial aid will be a problem for me. I also clearly want to apply international. (:</p>

<p>Thanks again!</p>

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<p>The first thing you need to know is exactly what you want to study, since you’re applying for a specific course. If it’s not something that requires Math and Science, don’t worry, they simply do not care.</p>

<p>Your best bet is taking either a bunch of Advanced Placement exams or IB exams, with the latter probably carrying stronger weight. You need to write the exams too, not simply do well in the course in high school. Do every course you feel relates well to your planned field of study.They want students prepared to jump right into specialised study.</p>

<p>Also commit yourself to relevant EC’s. If you want to be an English major, do some journalism, start a poetry club, write a novel, and other such things.</p>

<p>Honestly, in my opinion, you’re exactly the type of person they’re looking for. All you need are the results to back it up.</p>

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<p>Oxbridge are extremely difficult schools. And in 2012 46,000 UCAS applicants achieved AAA+, there were 17,241 applications to Oxford specifically and 375 (11.7 percent of total acceptance) were accepted from outside EEA. </p>

<p>This is not to say that you won’t be one of the lucky few, you should definitely try to apply because what’s the worst that could happen? And if I remember correctly application dates close in October, so do not delay if you are going to apply through UCAS or otherwise.</p>

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<p>I did not read past the first couple of sentences, but you are at a place that has about the best advising in any school in the world, with the most experience of how students from your school do in admissions, so you should not be asking on here, especially in the playground section of the forum.</p>

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<p>BrownParent: simply put, I disagree. My college counselor is indeed highly capable, and she recommended that we use utilize sources like this one, just as long we took all comments with a grain of salt. </p>

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<p>You need to take 5 APs - see if you can late register for them - and preferably get 5s.
For English, you’d need English Language, English Lit, plus three NON SCIENCE subjects.
It’s expected you completed precalculus with a C or more, if you did then you’re okay.
You’ll need to register on UCAS by October 15, and have your statement ready. The statement
needs to focus on your preparation for the subject and proofs of involvement in it, then what you
intend to study while at Oxford or Cambridge.
Beside Edimburgh and St Andrews, you will still have 2 spots for UCAS, so choose any program
within the Russell Group. (UCD isn’t part of UCAS but of CAO.)
Look into American colleges that don’t have a core, you wouldn’t need to take any math there either - Brown, Grinnell, URochester… come to mind.
Also look into UToronto, McGill, and UBC, as well as the UBC/SciencesPo partnership (if you speak French).</p>

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<ul>
<li>register for the ELAT in time</li>
</ul>

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<p>Oxbridge Will.Not.Care about your ability or lack of in math. At all.</p>

<p>Take the AP in English Lit and a few other humanities subjects, as people have suggested. In addition Oxford asks candidates to take its own exam. There is quite a lot of useful info here: <a href=“http://www.english.ox.ac.uk/prospective-undergraduates/admissions”>http://www.english.ox.ac.uk/prospective-undergraduates/admissions&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I think that given your clearly very different abilities in essay based and more numerical subjects, you will be much better off with a UK degree (whether that is Oxford or elsewhere) than a US degree, because in the UK you will never have to do anything mathematical or scientific ever again. </p>

<p>However, Oxford does not want well rounded people, they want people who are obsessed with their subject and a bit geeky, not those who have been fannying around with irrelevant leadership positions and violin playing (it’s fine if you do those things, it’s just that they don’t care unless it’s directly relevant to your course). This should be reflected in your personal statement (NB make sure you understand how to write a UK PS - they are NOT the same as a college admissions essay). </p>

<p>You have a fairly unusual set of qualifications - clearly very talented, but you have only your school’s say-so, and some SAT scores. UK universities normally like to see APs. This is simply because they’re the closest thing to the qualifications that UK students do, A Levels. On this front, I would suggest that you might like to email a suitable admissions tutor at Oxford before you apply, to get their take on the matter (they don’t bite!). You will, of course, have to read between the lines - they’ll never give an outright yes or no, but varying shades of maybe, because they haven’t yet seen your application in full. </p>

<p>With regards to your learning disorder, this is something that should be included in the reference that your school writes for you (NOT your personal statement). However, you are somewhat unfortunate that you are in the US - in the UK, you don’t have to continue maths or science beyond 16, and most people applying for English won’t have done. </p>

<p>There is, however, nothing to be worried about in going to one of your ‘safety’ schools. Oxford is always a bit of a lottery in terms of admissions, and when I was at school I saw some very good candidates rejected in favour of those who I had always had down as being less academically gifted. It happens. However, other universities do also have rigorous degree courses, are in nice locations, and are well respected by US employers. Don’t just look at the ones Americans always look at (Oxbridge, St Andrews, Edinburgh). Try and think beyond that - UCL, KCL, Glasgow, Manchester, Bristol, Nottingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Cardiff, Birmingham, Durham, Exeter, Sheffield, York etc. Make sure that you have a look at the modules that are on offer at each university - I’m sure that by now you have an inkling of which areas of English you enjoy, and you should try and find a course that teaches modules you think you will enjoy. </p>

<p>Finally, go and have a look at The Student Room. There are forums there for Oxford, English, International applicants, UCAS etc. etc. - it’s essentially like a UK version of CC. </p>

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<p>Thanks so much to everyone who has responded so far! For APs I am planning to do English Language and English Literature. I’m a little hesitant to do others, but if I really should do 5 I guess I would go for United States History, United States Government and Politics, and World History. I don’t know if any of those are really relevant to an English major, but I don’t know. The other schools I am looking at right now are as follows:</p>

<p>Unlikely

  • University of Oxford
  • Yale University
  • Columbia University
  • Brown University </p>

<p>Reach

  • University College of London
  • King’s College London
  • University of East Anglia
  • Northwestern University </p>

<p>Likely

  • University College of Dublin?
  • Trinity College, Dublin
  • University of Glasgow
  • New York University
  • George Washington University</p>

<p>Safety

  • University of St. Andrews
  • University of Edinburgh</p>

<p>Any suggestions of schools I should/shouldn’t apply to (on the list or not)?</p>

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<p>Any specific types of Literature you’re interested in? For instance, for many of those UK schools outside UCLand Oxbridge the comparative Lit programs are really weak. I would definitely encourage you to look into Durham University over Kings, East Anglia, Dublin etc (You only have five choices, so you need to make them count).</p>

<p>My suggestion would be:</p>

<p>Oxford
Cambridge
UCL
Durham
Edinburgh</p>

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<p>^^It’s not possible to apply to both Oxford and Cambridge.</p>

<p>You can only apply to a total of 5 “courses” (majors) or universities in the UK. There’s always NCH as a near-safety, and it’s affiliated with UCL; St Andrews accepts the CommonApp so you may be able to squeeze two more.</p>

<p>Columbia has a very strong core, so it wouldn’t be good for you. Look into Barnard though.
Edimburgh and St Andrews would certainly not be safeties.
Look into Manchester, Queen’s (Belfast), Warwick, and York (especially over East Anglia). I also second Durham.
Ask your counselor for a list of American colleges without cores or distribution requirements, like Brown and Grinnell.
How about Canada? It’d be the same principle as in the UK - no distribution requirements. Check out McGill, UToronto, UBC, York, Concordia… the rankings appear on McLean’s website.</p>

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<p>Forgot.</p>

<p>I would definitely not suggest Manchester for Lit, Warwick either. </p>

<p>St Andrews ain’t a safety, but if you do considerably better than the scores Edinburgh outlines on their site, consider yourself in. Your fee status as an international is a huge sell for them, since they are free for Scottish applicants and therefore need internationals for money.</p>

<p>Canada is a good call, and will probably be a safer bet.</p>

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<p>Ireland is not in the UK, thus not on UCAS. Trinity would be very strong in English Lit. Would not recommend UCD for Lit. Durham is collegiate (like Oxbridge) and very highly rated. Don’t forget to consider environment: St Andrews is in the back of beyond, Edinburgh is urban, Durham is small town, UCL is full-on city. St. Andrews will be closest to an American uni in terms of support/hand-holding for students; UK unis tend to assume more self-sufficiency than US ones do. </p>

<p>For APs, Oxford requires a minimum of 3 (and only scores of 5 will count); most applicants will have rather more. However English has an admissions test, so being relatively light on APs won’t hurt as much. If you have 5’s on Lit, Lang and a History when you apply, nail the ELAT and the interview it is possible to get an unconditional offer with 3 APs. Note that US Gov does not count as a full AP (<a href=“http://www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/explore-your-options/entry-requirements/tariff-tables/app”>http://www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/explore-your-options/entry-requirements/tariff-tables/app&lt;/a&gt;). The point of history APs is that they require a substantial amount of reading, and the ability synthesize material into a cogent argument, which are abilities that overlap with those required for English. </p>

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<p>I actually don’t know which specific English major I would go into, because there are so many. I would love to have a degree in Creative Writing, but I expect that would do absolutely nothing in terms of getting me a job. I’m quite interested in Journalism, but I doubt I would give up literature/fiction writing/essay writing for it.</p>

<p>Good point on Columbia having a core, but I went to an information session and spoke with some professors, and I actually was so impressed by the nature of their core curriculum (Contemporary Civilization) that I think it would be worth wrestling my way through a few more math and science classes.</p>

<p>St. Andrews and Edinburgh are my UK safeties because of the relationship they have with Andover. St A’s didn’t reject a single PA student last year, and Edinburgh accepted a friend of mine who got kicked out for drug dealing. My odds at those two look good, but I also have state schools and other safeties in the U.S. just in case. How do you guys think St. A’s and Edinburgh compare to one another?</p>

<p>Also, could you guys please explain the thinking behind why you suggest Durham, Belfast, Warwick, York, etc., and “especially over East Anglia” in one case? Coming from the States, I really don’t know much about these universities, though I am doing the best I can. Some insight into the pros/cons of these universities (I’m researching them all online now) would be super helpful.</p>

<p>Lastly, my research so far has told me that UCL and King’s would be very difficult to get into, but I was able to turn up almost no information for acceptance rates to East Anglia, Trinity Dublin, Glasgow, and so on. Could any of you give a (very very rough) estimate of my chances for each? In other words, whether they would be reaches, likelys, or unlikelys? </p>

<p>Thanks again! You guys have been amazing. </p>

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<p>You should do a couple language APs.Oxford, UCL and Durham highly value language proficiency. I suggest French and Spanish.</p>

<p>Maybe European History and Art History if you really want to have the extra AP scores, but I think you’ll get the Oxford interview and test with just the four. After that its up to you.</p>

<p>For UCL and Durham, I’d recfomend taking the extra APs</p>

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<p>UCAS will cover England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. You’ll only have 5 choices. CAO will cover The Republic of Ireland (Eire) and you’ll have up to 10 choices at level 8.</p>

<p>You can use “Leagues Tables” which are the British “rankings”. Tariffs points tell you how selective a major is (anything 400 and above is pretty selective, anything 300 and below is…not, and 500 is insanely competitive.)
<a href=“http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/University_Guide/”>http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/University_Guide/&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/University_Guide/”>http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/University_Guide/&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“University guide 2013: league table for English | Education | theguardian.com”>http://www.theguardian.com/education/table/2012/may/22/university-guide-english&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“English Rankings 2024”>English Rankings 2024;

<p>East Anglia has Creative Writing indeed (didn’t know you were interested in that when I posted) but it’s the same league as the others. My thinking is that you need one safety, that’s all. That If you’re certain StA and Edinburgh are safeties due to your school’s feeder tradition, then you’re fine picking 3 highly selective universities. :slight_smile: Warwick, York, Durham, UCL, Edinburgh, and StA are all roughly at the same selectivity level, above the 500 tariff point, meaning insanely difficult to get into. EA is a big drop selectivity-wise but it has creative writing so it would be a good safety. Manchester, Glasgow, and Cardiff are other universities that are prestigious but relatively easier to get into. Look also at the location - some cities (like Cardiff) are really nice for students. There are lots of different environments, too - closer to the coast or not, “Northern” or not…</p>

<p>Most importantly, go to each university’s “course” page. There won’t be distribution reqs but there won’t be much choice either. Each school decides what you have to study and those requirements vary from school to school. There’s more flexibility in Ireland(Eire) and Scotland but at some English universities basically none, so you need to select based on a combination of tariff points and list required classes for the course (major). 5 choices isn’t a lot, especially since StA and Edinburgh are necessarily two of them, so you really only have 3.</p>

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<p>“For APs I am planning to do English Language and English Literature. I’m a little hesitant to do others, but if I really should do 5 I guess I would go for United States History, United States Government and Politics, and World History. I don’t know if any of those are really relevant to an English major, but I don’t know.”</p>

<p>History is good; lots of UK applicants will have done History A level for the reasons mentioned upthread. I would possibly only do one of the History APs, though, as I’m not sure they’d count them as separate subjects. Art History would be a good choice too, especially as it’s something you’re obviously good at.</p>

<p>If you can do Spanish Literature as well as Language, that would probably be a good idea - they may possibly only count the two as one, but it would be more in keeping with what UK A level students will have done, and also relevant for an English Literature degree.</p>

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<p>A few points </p>

<ul>
<li><p>I’m not sure I’d put UEA that far up the list. It’s got a decent but not stellar reputation overall (but not as good as any of the other UK universities on your list), and whilst the creative writing MA has a good reputation, I’m not sure about the extent to which the same can be said for their undergrad courses (though I should note at this point that English isn’t really my subject area). You should also think carefully about whether or not you want to live in Norwich for three years - the university is a concrete jungle, the town is depressing and on the one occasion that I had the misfortune to visit the town I couldn’t wait to get away. Unfortunately, the train lines out of Norwich aren’t very good - it’s two hours to London (for reference, you could get to Manchester in the NW in the same period of time). But if you like isolation, mid-sized towns and inbred locals, Norwich may be the place for you. </p></li>
<li><p>As MYOS says, consider what sort of environment you want. London and St Andrews are incredibly different experiences, and many people will find that one suits them and the other doesn’t. Do you like big cities, seaside, nightlife (you can drink at 18 in the UK in case you didn’t know, so this is relevant!), arts and culture, small towns, villages…? Do you plan to do much travelling (either around the UK or Europe) whilst you’re here? If so, you’ll want to go somewhere where the connections are good. If you tell us what sort of place you might like to live in, we can give you some suggestions. </p></li>
<li><p>I am unconvinced that Trinidad has any real experience of the UK education system - you can’t apply to Oxford and Cambridge at the same time, I wouldn’t write off Manchester or Warwick for English, and whilst all UK universities do welcome the extra fee income that internationals bring, the both the English / Welsh / NI and Scottish universities are partially funded by the government, so they are nowhere near as reliant on international fee income as he seems to be implying. </p></li>
<li><p>Any essay based AP will be relevant for English, so your suggestions of APs do work. </p></li>
<li><p>Don’t do a degree in journalism. Look up your favourite journalists, and have a look at how many of them did an undergraduate degree in journalism. If the US is anything like the UK, then the answer will be few, if any. Most of them take subjects like English, History or Politics, work on the student newspaper whilst at university, and go into journalism after that. </p></li>
<li><p>If you like English Language, you may like to consider linguistics, if you haven’t already. </p></li>
<li><p>Don’t forget that it is possible to combine multiple types of English in one course - have a play with the course search at <a href=“http://www.ucas.com”>www.ucas.com</a> For instance, you could do Lit & Lang at Birmingham, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, KCL, Leeds, Newcastle, Nottingham, Oxford, Sheffield and Sussex (NB there are others, but I’d only bother with the ones I’ve listed - the others are crap). You could also combine English Language, Literature and Linguistics at Southampton. </p></li>
<li><p>Make sure you look at the modules on offer at each different university. This is incredibly important, because it varies wildly and dictates what you’ll be studying. Go for the uni with the modules that look the most interesting to you. </p></li>
<li><p>NCH is a joke, and one man’s personal vanity project. It is not, as far as I can make out, affiliated in any way with UCL, but the University of London (UCL is a constituent college of UoL, NCH is not). It teaches the Uni of London’s international programme, which can be done on a distance learning basis for a fraction of the cost <a href=“http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/”>Study with the University of London, anywhere in the world; </p></li>
<li><p>In terms of entry grades, MYOS’ characterisation of 300/400/500 point unis isn’t too far off at all, though personally I wouldn’t bother crossing the Atlantic for anything with less than 370 points (Sunday Times rankings). However, don’t try and work out how many UCAS points you have and therefore whether or not you can get in to any given uni based on it - not only do the decent unis not use UCAS points when making offers, you can pick up UCAS points for some very strange courses (I think my favourite is the pony care one) <a href=“UCAS | At the heart of connecting people to higher education”>http://www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/explore-your-options/entry-requirements/tariff-tables&lt;/a&gt; </p></li>
</ul>

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<p>I know both boomting and myos (2 stellar cc’ers, btw) have said this, but it bears repeating: UK and Irish unis heavily prescribe the individual classes that you must take, and what choices there are very strictly defined. If you look you will be able to find the specific classes that you will have to take- and what (if any) choices you will have- for each course at each university. For example, here are the courses you will take if you do English Lang/Lit at Oxford: <a href=“http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate_courses/courses/english_language_and_literature/english_language_a_1.html”>http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate_courses/courses/english_language_and_literature/english_language_a_1.html&lt;/a&gt; (course II is if you choose to specialize in Medieval). </p>

<p>Also, be aware that each course you apply to is one of your 5 (or 8 in Ireland) choices. So, if you apply to Durham for English and for English with a Language, that is 2 of your 5 UCAS slots, even though it is the same University.</p>

<p>Finally, a cultural hint (with all due respect to myos!), the English will often refer to Ireland as Eire, but the Irish do not (unless actually speaking Irish at the time). </p>