Oxford vs. Chicago

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
1

<p>I hate to do another 'vs.' thread, I imagine they're really getting on people's nerves. However, form my lurking and brief posting history, I've found Chicago affiliates really helpful and patient, so I thought I'd shamelessly try their patience just a little more for my own benefit.</p>

<p>Background: Chicago seems great as far as I can tell, my own concerns are mainly about whether I'd get bored doing the Core. I'm unsure of what I really want to do, so Oxford's having room to explore definitely counts against it, but still... do I really want to go back to doing biology? I appreciate this is exactly the sort of thing I could be pleasantly by surprised though: honestly I have little clue. I live in rural England, so while I like the idea of getting out to the US, a country I ruddy love on every level, maybe being an undergrad in a big foreign city could be daunting. These are the sorts of questions students past and present are best placed to answer really, since no doubt many of you will have had similar experiences.</p>

<p>The other concern is cost and my family: they insist it's madness to turn down the cachet of an Oxford degree for relatively unprestigious Chicago (they, not I, many of my intellectual heroes went to Chicago and I applied in the first place because I liked the university a lot and knew it's well regarded in academia). Furthermore, while some other relatives have offered to pay, my parents refuse to do so, and are telling me in no uncertain terms that the assurances of these other relatives that they're happy to and can easily pay for me are empty, and that I'm selfishly burdening people with the cost of an education I could get for free. There's no way our family qualifies for financial aid. The only thing I can really say is that I'll try to work extra hard and graduate a year early, as I see is possible at some places in America. I don't know how feasible, if at all, that is at Chicago.</p>

<p>I'd appreciate any replies, obviously, but if this 'vs.' thread turns out to be the straw that breaks the camel's back, I understand.</p>

2

<p>Living overseas and studying at a great university is a fantastic experience and I bet you would love the adventure. I have to admit, though, that if you can go to Oxford for free paying full freight for Chicago seems over the top, unless your relatives who have offered to pay are really rolling in money.</p>

3

<p>Well yes, that’s the biggest consideration. Still, said relatives think Chicago is a better option, and if I can convince my parents that it isn’t that bad (they’re Oxbridge-or-die types who are still in shock at the fact I’m even considering anywhere else), they’ll probably pitch in. It’s more of a refusal to pay on the grounds that they hate the idea of their offspring at Chicago than on the grounds that it’d be so much easier for them were I to go Oxford. I appreciate I can’t really be helped by anyone here on this matter given that this is essentially an issue for my family and me to decide on the importance of, but I thought I’d point out the main source of reluctance.</p>

4

<p>let’s talk about some practical aspects.</p>

<p>What are your post graduation plans? Do you want to attend top graduate program in USA? Do you want to find a job in USA or do you want to go back to England?</p>

<p>For the graduate school at USA, it should not really matter. American graduate schools accept tons of foreign students. Coming out of Oxford, this should not be a problem what so ever.</p>

<p>The real advantage is, if you want to somehow find an employment in USA. In that case, definitely go to Chicago. There is nothing like being in the country, getting internships for what not, building connections into the potential employer network, etc. By the way, just so you know, betting a work visa straight out of an undergraduate program is very hard.</p>

<p>By the way, regarding your parents’ concern about ‘unprestigious U Chicago’, are they aware that U CHicago is rated within top 10 in the world by one of the most frequently cited international ranking agencies. On some rankings, it’s higher, on others, lower. It’s in that ball park.</p>

5

<p>Let’s add some further nuance here. My D currently attends Oxford as a grad student (Green Templeton), so I can speak from some knowledge.</p>

<p>First thing to consider is that the approach to education is completely different when comparing Oxford to UChicago, at the undergrad level.</p>

<p>So, what college would you attend at Oxford? That alone makes a big difference. St. Johns? Magdalen? Teddy Hall? For you yanks at the table, Oxford is, for undergrads, more of a collection of individual colleges than a unified university. </p>

<p>Next, if you are not absolutely positive regarding what you want to study, Oxford will pose a big challenge. Get into the wrong college, and some courses of study would not even be offered, not that you can switch easily anyway.</p>

<p>The work pace at UofC would be very different from Oxford. US universities do not have year end exams - no Exam School. Instead, you have exams during the quarter with term end finals. Prep term for these finals is on the order of a week or so, not an entire quarter. </p>

<p>Regarding future employment prospects, I don’t think it really matters. Oxford is well known world wide. So is Chicago. Besides, employment is based so much more on who you know, what you’ve personally done, connections made and so forth, and so much less on where you went to college, that you can consider this a non-issue.</p>

6

<p>I would like to end up living in America. That was part of my reason for applying. I don’t know how important going there for undergrad would be to what is essentially very much a long-term decision.</p>

<p>Don’t worry, I’ve considered college and how much I want to do the course I applied for (not much, is the honest answer, my school gave me terrible advice about what to apply for). The college is nice architecturally, has a great location, middling size, middling rank in the Norrington tables.</p>

<p>The thing that worries me most about Chicago is the potential for the Core to be a disaster, and the fact it’s four years, which, having done A-levels, could be a drag.</p>

7

<p>You can spread out your Core or concentrate your Core in any way you like. You can finish up your Core in two years if you want. I actually made the same decision last year between a very prestigious UK university and UChicago. I ultimately opted for UChicago for the well-rounded education rather than the pre-professional education system in Britain’s higher education system.</p>

8

<p>LC, if you view the online materials in detail, you would see that there’s quite a bit of flexibility built into the core. In math and the sciences, there are a number of different tracks taught at different levels, so that few students are over their heads. It does mean that a person who is all humanities will graduate with a smattering of science literacy, but most educators think that’s not a bad idea.</p>

<p>In the social sciences and humanities, again, there is quite a bit of flexibility. And the teaching approach at UofC is like few other places. I don’t think any of the folks who have been through these sequences would call them “a drag”. Overwhelming? maybe. Lot’s of work. Yes. </p>

<p>Finally, the US approach to higher ed assumes kids will change their focus during college and leaves plenty of room for that. In fact, the vast majority of kids do change their majors in college, often radically. The UK approach leaves little room for change.</p>

<p>Under which system would you rather study?</p>

9

<p>Another option is to go to Oxford and then get a graduate degree in the US. A masters degree is only a year or two, and depending on the field and school, you might not need to pay for it.</p>

10

<p>

</p>

<p>The employment issue matters in this case since he is a foreigner, looking to get a work visa in USA as an employee. This is really, really tough these days. Mostly large companies with well fortified HR and legal departments handle the whole issue of working with the government and navigate through this byzantine process. Usually, there is more quota for tech degrees. Even here, Microsoft and Google are having problems getting their international new hires work visa. Microsoft used to have a satellite office in Vancouver across the border to park their employees while they shoot for the work visa off the next year’s quota.</p>

<p>Most small companies won’t even touch the foreign hire issues because they don’t want to get mixed up with INS. I know folks whose potential job leads went absolutely COLD the moment they heard that this sterling job candidate needs sponsorship for work visa. </p>

<p>Given all this, getting a job offer as a foreign national right off the undergrad is very difficult, and if it was to be done, you need all the local connections and what not. I highly doubt you can get a job at USA right after you graduate from Oxford without any local (USA) connections and networking. RIght out of Chicago, you may have some chance if you build your network through summer internships and other networking opportunities.</p>

<p>If your plan includes graduate school, then it does not matter whether you go to Oxford or Chicago. Getting out of a good American graduate school is a plenty of a spring board. In fact, this is how most of the skilled immigrants get their USA citizenship eventually.</p>

11

<p>I was also deciding between the two schools, and I eventually made up my mind to turn down oxford for chicago. While I visited Oxford for my interview, I found out that the school didn’t prove a good fit for me. Oxford seemed like mere collection of individual colleges, and an Oxford college was a tiny community for me to spend three years. I’m also not sure of what major to pursue. And its rural setting was a big minus for me.</p>

<p>Chicago’s Core sounds very attractive to me, as it will allow me enough time to explore diverse areas of study. From what I’ve heard, Chicago’s undergrad focus was strong enough to guarantee intimate learning experience and access to faculty. (Oxford’s tutorial system was excellent as well on this aspect) I loved the Chicago urban setting – Oxford’s location was, in fact, awful to me.</p>

<p>From what I’ve seen, those two schools are so different from each other, though both are amazing world-class institutions. I was also tempted by the Oxford’s name value, but Chicago seemed the right place for me. Make sure how you want to shape your next four (or three) years before making final decision.</p>

12

<p>LeCavalier:</p>

<p>Congratulations on your acceptances; you sound like a very interesting person ( and will do well and prosper wherever you go):</p>

<p>1) You have two issues: where to go to school and how to deal with your parents. Though I am very sympathetic to you, I understand your parents’ insistence on Oxford. To be able to go a school as incredible as Oxford for relatively little money (no matter your parents’ financial situation), even for a school as good and unique as Chicago, is hard to pass up. Particularly where Oxford’s network in the UK is obviously – well, it is THE network in the UK. I would say fight for Chicago over many top US schools, but you could never convince me that Oxford was academically inferior to Chicago in a broad sense nevermind worth a nearly $300,000 price premium over 4 years if you factor in travel and extras, and believe me, the “extras” add up.</p>

<p>2) You haven’t seen UChicago, I take it. It’s a nice campus, but it does NOT compare to the centuries old majesty of Oxford and can’t offer anything like its myriad student traditions. Maybe coming from the UK you’re used to ancient beauty and it’s not that big a deal but I think you will find the campus a major disappointment after having seen Oxford and Cambridge. And the area around the campus is a mixed bag of splotches of very nice, not so nice, and terrifying, depending how far out you go. Safety is a concern at Chicago the way it is NOT at Oxford. (The only reason UChicago is safe is that it has a police force the size of a an army division!) But maybe you’re up for a little adventure!</p>

<p>3) Chicago is known for giving one of the finer undergrad educations in the US, particularly for a large university with substantial graduate programs. The opportunity to explore more than 1 field is a big draw relative to the specialization of Oxford. That said, I personally believe that Oxford’s system of tutorials is the best educational mechanism on the planet. It’s not so much that you’re learning one subject, it is the PROCESS of learning to research independently and then articulate your ideas and defend your arguments one on one with some of the best scholars in the world on a weekly basis. That’s amazing. (All top schools like Chicage and Yale (where I went) have seminar systems as you advance and maybe as a freshman, but they are NOT THE SAME or as demanding as an Oxbridge tutorial!!!</p>

<p>4) In school, and later in my career, I have met people from all the top schools. (I work in finance.) I can say without a doubt that the most intelligent, articulate, truly impressive people I have met in the business have come out of Oxford and Cambridge. Their ability to analyze, argue and persuade, with great charm and panache, is quite impressive and I believe is partially a function of the education system in Britain. Pound for pound, they are more impressive than the folks even from HYP and Wharton in the states. Though Chicago is changing, it has long had a repution for quirky geekiness, maybe a tinge of antisocialness, and frankly charm and sociability are not the usual things I associate with Chicago. In the long run, these things can be important.</p>

<p>5) Chicago is a good city, but it is not a city on a par with London or New York. At Oxford, you are an hour and a half from London by train or bus but you could also easily escape for the weekend to Paris or Amsterdam or Brussels or Dublin or Edinburgh relatively cheaply by train. Chicago is pretty far from any other city of interest and getting to New York, Boston, Washington or the West Coast would involve flying and is very expensive. Chicago is brutally cold in the winter as well. Though Chicago obviously has lakefront, the land for hundreds and hundreds of miles is flat as a pancake – there are no mountains or seashores easily accessible for diversion.</p>

<p>6) The others are right. Unless you stumble into a special situation, the odds of securing work documents to stay in the US after undergrad are not good. Go to school at Oxford and spend time on summer holiday traveling in the states or doing a special internship. Get your America buzz there.</p>

<p>7) Keep Chicago in your pocket for grad school. Who knows where your head will be 3 years from now, but Chicago is superb in almost every field for grad or professional school. And then, depending on the field, getting sponsored for a visa, though tricky, would be likely than coming just from undergrad.</p>

<p>Just my gut reaction.</p>

13

<p>Mancune,</p>

<p>Have you been to either UofC or Oxford as something more than a tourist? I doubt it from the tone of your post. I won’t go into a point by point rebuttal, because most of what you say is opinion. I’ll just stick to a few facts.</p>

<p>1) Cost. Anyone with even a smattering of knowledge of the UK press knows there is a financial crisis in British higher ed, including Oxbridge. State support is low. Fees are low. Expenditures per student are low, especially if you are in one of the less endowed colleges, although I understand from on the scene sources that the St. Johns wine celler is amazing, so we know where some of the rich colleges’ endowment goes!</p>

<p>2) Campus. One can’t really compare the Oxford environment to any in the US. To carry your line of reasoning further, the MIT campus would be absolutely disgusting, since it is even more modern! (come to think of it, some parts of Oxford, even the university, are rather 20th century boring , just not the tourist bits!). Keep in mind too that living in a museum is often rather difficult. Buildings from the 15th century were hardly designed with modern conveniences in mind. </p>

<p>3) Education. The tutorial system has its pros and cons. It is not all plus. Consider an environment where you don’t get as much interaction with fellow students (hence the need for all those social traditions? how else do you get to know one another?), where your education depends on the whims of a small number of faculty, the ones with your college, good and bad? How about the total lack of flexibility outside one’s discipline? How many 18-19 year olds really know where they’re going intellectually?</p>

<p>5) Physical environment. How one could compare living in a world class city like Chicago with being 1 1/2 hours away by train is beyond me. The difference is that a trip to London from Oxford is often a day trip. And the cost by train (the fast way) is non-trivial. Bus is cheaper but much slower. One can access Chicago’s culture in much less time, with much more flexibility. Just compare cab fare from Hyde Park to the Loop to Oxford to London! Regarding “flat as a pancake”, guess you’ve never looked around Oxford or Chicago. Take Chicago first. One need not drive that far to find real hills nearby in Wisconsin. True, no ocean nearby. But the Indiana Dunes NP, Michigan’s Lake Michigan Coast (try north of Muskegon) and Door County Wisconsin, to name a few, are great destinations. Ryan Air can be cheap (but watch the extras) but is a long bus ride away from Oxford. During the time it takes to bus to Stansted, their main London hub, one could travel to Midway, be on a Southwest flight, and perhaps have landed, all for not much more money. </p>

<p>Now let’s take Oxford. I have first hand reports from a student there (my D) that thinks are pretty flat there too. Getting to the ocean is not so easy - half day trip minimum each way, with train change to boot, and not so cheap. Hills? Yes you can get to the Cotswalds by bus in an hour or so. Ditto south of town. And how often do students do so? But mountains? Heck, the highest hills in all of England are in the Lake District. And they are neither close nor high. Not to mention the weather. In the same travel time, for only a bit less money, one can travel to real mountains in the US or Canada. Keep in mind too that someone who grew up with convenient access to Paris or Amsterdam or Brussels or Dublin or Edinburgh might want something different for a few years. </p>

<p>Let’s be fair here. The same things that attract us Yanks to England, its distinctness, attract Brits to the US. </p>

<p>I personally don’t know the OP’s situation, and I doubt anyone else does here, save the OP. So let’s not be so quick to judge whether or not the OP would have an easy or difficult time with a US work permit, whether or not the OP cares, and whether or not finances matter.</p>

14

<p>LeCavalier: Are you British? Based on my understanding, Oxford, Cambridge and UChicago have almost the same tuition for international students.</p>

15

<p>Well, thanks very much to everyone for the effort they’ve put in to helping me with this. I’m afraid the responses as yet have so voluminous and well researched that I’m processing and not much closer than I was to making my mind up, but certainly a whole lot more informed.</p>

<p>Yes, I’m British. Fees at Oxford are therefore a grand total of £3000pa, IF accommodation is College-provided. However, if the Tories get in next year, God knows what’ll happen. What’s more I may have to get my own accommodation as a third-year, which will be a chunky £11000 for the one year in Oxford.</p>