@Portercat. St. Bonaventure and Siena are excellent values. Bonaventure has an average cost of attendence of around $18k and Siena a little higher. Bonaventure is about 2400 students but feels much bigger because the campus is huge and it has its own golf course on campus. In addition has D1 sports at a high level. Dayton, St. Bonaveture and St. Joes shared the A10 basketball championship this year. Rugby, womens basketball, swimming are also highly ranked giving the school a bigger feel. ESPN just ranked the basketball arena the sixth most exciting venue to vist in the country. There is a great ski area 30 minutes from campus. The campus is lovely right on the Allegany river just north of the PA/NY border.
OP, to quote -
[ quote ]Whatever you copied goes here[ /quote ]
Just take out the spaces in the quote and unquote section
If she truly wants her best shot to get the ACT/SAT score for UA or Ole Miss full tuition OOS scholarship - she should be prepared to be doing all the test prep work (practice testing, etc) - however a ACT 32 is a big challenge. Maybe she will see where she is with the Sept testing. Looking at May 2016 concordance, ACT composite of 32 is New SAT total 1470, and OP stated a SAT score was 290 deficit -and evidently already had been in a SAT prep through the school.
I doubt that the 2nd SAT score will raise much unless something unusual with testing the first time - like she truly had an off day.
I have seen ACT score rise with effort and repeat testing, but to a 32 may be unrealistic - but should know how she does in the Sept test. When she sees her repeat SAT score from Oct, that may affirm her test score situation.
What does she want to study? What is she academically strong at?
Sounds like she will need to earn a bachelorās degree to be self supporting.
Oh boy - hope you can make some progress with her maturity. Maybe she needs to take a gap year and earn $$ if she truly wants to go to a school beyond where the financial constraints are. At least that might head her off from loans that she will have to pay on after graduating.
She also needs to see that living within an affluent area, she most likely has got an education already that many would be envious of - however it is her perseverance and work ethic in college and career that will allow her to achieve what she wants w/o going to an un-affordable university.
Give her ways to deflect answering some of the ātalkā as to where people are going to school - so she doesnāt have to participate in some of these bragging discussions. Many kids will say they are attending X school and they end up at another.
Thanks Njdad2348. Good suggestions. Sheās not too hot on winter and like the OP, going north of PA is not preferred.
@Portercat Iāve been trying to encourage my daughter to look at some of these schools, but without much success to date. All those you mentioned are ātoo smallā. Some of the LACs and smaller universities would be less expensive for us than the PASSHE schools, but my daughter is stubbornly refusing to consider them. After going to a small high school (less than 100 in her class), I think she just wants the excitement of a big school and to get lost in the crowd. Unfortunately, Iām afraid sheāll get too lost.
I agree somewhat with the maturity comment. We are still considering a gap year (possibly more than one). However, I really donāt think she is any less mature than her friends; just not as wealthy, so she has to be concerned with issues they donāt have to think about, She is a very good employee, got the best supervisor reviews she could have, and has stuck with her job longer than any other part-timer doing the same work (15 months now). She pays for her cell phone and monthly bill, all her clothes, and all of her recreational activities. Unfortunately, sheās not a frugal individual, and has developed a Starbucks habit and a taste for the finer things in life. As I posted before, sheās unfortunately adopted the entitlement mentality of many of the kids of this community.
OP, great. The 529 will have to be spent. And good she has Pell. And although you said you were anti loan I believe it seems necessary in this case.
@MYOS1634 new college is 800 students.
@kidzncztz and @ Portercatā¦I am in exactly the same situation. I am not sure how my daughter has become a college snob (3.5 weighted and 3.1 unweighted along with a 24 ACT). We live on the western side of the state and she has snubbed Clarion and IUP(will not consider the others on this side). We have visited Bloomsburg (I think it is a good fitā¦it is a last resort in her mind) and I think she does have some interest in West Chester. She did not like Shippensburg. Will not look at Penn State Erie We have looked at othersā¦York(liked but now does not), Gannon(They really want her as her mom went herā¦she has snubbed it), Saint Vincent(Too small), Millersville(passhe), Edinboro(in her mindā¦bottom feeder of passhe), Allegheny(too small) in stateā¦OOSā¦Niagara U (I liked itā¦too small and no walkable town for D), Canisius (She likes), John Carroll (She likes), WVU (She likes), Fairmont (did not like), URI (she likedā¦I did not like the drive), Youngstown State (She likedā¦but has changed her mind), Cleveland State (She likes just a bit). She is a high level swimmer. She could swim at all of these but WVU would be a stretch. Many of the schools(DII and DIās) are willing to provide some level of scholarship moneyā¦
She only wants to apply to John Carroll and Canisius. Honestly, she is a good kid, has worked since she turned 15 (as a lifeguard), keeps her nose clean. Having said that, she is a good but not a great studentā¦every conversation becomes a crying sessionā¦lol. She said she should not have to worry about money at age 17 (WHAT??? lol).
We live in an affluent community but we are not affluent (we are comfortable). I believe her friends make a comment that sticks or a tour guide makes one statement that is a turn off and that is the end of the story for that school. It is all a bit silly but I am trying. We do have money saved in the pa529 program.
Anywayā¦I know this does not help either of you but I am happy I am not alone! Hang in there!!!
@bester1. It does help, and any conversation helps, especially among PA families. What have you found as a COA for a a Penn State branch (~26K, or is that too low?). We are trying to get her ACTs above 25 as that is where merit seems to start. I donāt know of any test optional schools that would give merit without scoresā¦? York is still on our list.
She liked Millersville and Bloomsburg, not Shippensburg as much. She has been a little too impressed with the new (expensive) dorms at the PASSHE schools. She would love to go south if there was possibility. I know U. South Carolina gives great packages for OOS students with great stats.
Why didnāt your daughter like Shippensburg? Just curious. Do John Carroll and Canisius give a lot of aid (with ACT <25)? They seem to have higher sticker prices. Maybe they give $$ for swimming - we are not looking at athletics.
Canisius is pretty good on the money side but the campus is very tiny and drab and it is not a residential school with less than half of students living on campus. @Portercat if St. Bonaventure at 9 miles from the pa border is too far isnt 100 miles even worse?
@Portercat, PA is just a tough state to be in if youāre looking for public options. Thereās very little significant merit money available at any of these schools, with the exception of Temple, and even they are having to reevaluate after getting into trouble when too many students took them up on their generous automatic merit scholarships this past school year. Pitt used to offer some very good awards, but they are few and far between now and really only available to tippy-top students. The Penn State branch campuses arenāt as expensive as University Park, but theyāre still very pricey.
Even a school like the Pennyslvania College of Technology (aka āPenn Collegeā) in Williamsport ends up being about $28k a year if you live on campus as it is under the Penn State umbrella. My younger son has his eye on one of their two-year programs, which is doable for us, IF he proves he can and will do the required work. (Thatās a separate story.)
This is the reason so many suggest finding a good private where your student might be eligible for a tuition discount of some type. In my experience, however, most schools adjust the COA to match your in-state public COA, so there are few savings there, unless your child is eligible for a big scholarshipāathletic or otherwise.
@kidzncatz, if itās any consolation, my older son, whoās now at your daughterās ādream school,ā Alabama, really wanted a small college experience originally. But after four years in a small school, also with about 100 in his graduating class, he changed his mind about all those lovely private LACs, which pretty much left him to choose between Penn Stateās and UAās very large campuses, and heās been fine. West Chester, while much smaller, is still ābigā compared to most high schools and has a lovely campus, and I would imagine your daughter will be just fine there. Iāve never visited any of the other PASSHE schools, but I think theyāre similar in size.
@bester1 and OP - I do understand how kids get influenced by those around them and can have very unrealistic ideas.
We are not necessarily in an affluent area, but have a fair number of high paid/career parents. In 7th or 8th grade, DD2 came home from our public school and told me how a student announced in class that they family was going to be away, missing a couple of school days, and parents insisted that no homework/make up work to be assigned or to be counted as missing, that dad makes $600,000 a year. No idea how that got handled, but wow!
In many ways, it is clear that some things we as parents decide. Then later, although it may not totally avoid some mis-directed thinking on their part, it does establish a pattern which may lower the stubbornness on the direction the kid is heading. For example neither had a cell phone until driving and that is when we parents believed they needed a cell phone (older DD was not a terrific driver so she didnāt have her driverās license until age 17; DD2 was a great driver and had it at 16). MIL was interfering and wanting older grand-dau to have a cell phone (of course DD complained to her about it when she was in 8th grade), and we had to shut that down. We avoided the kids getting that texting frenzy habit too which was a problem with some of their peers.
The kids had to pay the difference in owning and operating a smart phone that was acquired a few years ago (neither of us parents have a smart phone, but we donāt need it either - although if our circumstances were different and we would benefit from them, we would have them). We pay the base cell phone rate through college, and we also pay for their car insurance. Only provide a car as needed.
We decide what ES/MS/HS they attended. We worked with them on seeing various Universities, and they participated pretty fully with various EC things which included some global travel. Both had a lot of opportunities that they highly enjoyed.
We helped facilitate their career search based on interests and aptitude. Guided them on the ACT/SAT test prep and resources. They know we want the best for them - but they do the work and we help provide support. We do not enable bad behaviors. By the time they were in college, we had hoped their moral compass was formed well - and they have done well in all areas. We are proud of them in many ways. They are following their religious faith.
Both DDs attended/attend in-state Universities which both were a great match for chosen degree and scholarship. They can support themselves with their degree (BS). See them continuing education in the future with working in their field, while one is completing advanced degree right away in a short time with a special program at her University. Both will not have school debt - not because we are ārichā - we have made decisions which have helped pay for what the college scholarships did not.
Both of them see other students at their University that need to work during the school year to help pay for school, take on student debt etc. Of course they also see affluent kids too, but that has always been around them to a certain degree.
Maybe this thread can be a āheadās upā for those with younger students - and maybe help parents make certain decisions, and make certain things clear to their kids.
When it comes to need based aid there is no difference between the family that makes 100K and the one that makes 600K, so it comes down to merit. Score well and you have a chance. Donāt, and you live in PA, it is very dfficult to save enough especially if you have more than 1 child and would like to retire someday. No offense, but I donāt think it is just about values.
@portercat - people living where they do - it really depends on what their state programs have to offer if the student doesnāt gain the merit awards. How much one can get a student to understand the current paradigm.
Students can attend their local CC too if a local four year program is not available/affordable. Also if the have AP, dual enrollment, CLEP.
A motivated student that really is hurting for $$ could finish some kind of tech program in high demand, or where they can earn decent $$ and work their way through school.
There is more than one way to do thisā¦
I go to La Salle, and with a 3.3 & similar test scores, my NPC was 17k after Pell & the $5500 student loan.
I feel St. Bon is better, Siena & Gannon are similar. LSU does give large merit, but we are NOT worth our 52k sticker price.
@Portercat - yesā¦PSU Erie will likely be 24-26,000. Not sure about the other branchesā¦the word ābranchā makes my daughter shutterā¦lol
@almostdonewithhs: I know. Most colleges oos that will provide sufficient aid (merit or need based) will be smaller, which is why I said OP 's daughter will need to accept smaller (often private) colleges if she wants to go oos for 5-15k a year. NCF is on a beach in Florida and automatically grants scholarships to admitted oos applicants. However itās very small, has a specific culture, and is a reach for the student 's stats.
Flagler will be affordable, but, again, specific culture and small.
Westminster (MO), Stetson and Eckerd offer discounts, too. SIU Carbondale could be affordable but the deep budget cuts suffered by directionals in Illinois (state near bankruptcy) doesnāt fill me with confidence.
An ideal school may be Truman State, because oos costs arenāt high, the scholarship system is pretty clear, and academic quality is very high. Itās a bit south (not southern but not as cold as MN or ME or even PA) and itās the right size. The scholarship grid may provide her with a clear goal for her test scores. Unfortunately if she wants to have bragging rights in the cafeteria, it wonāt have the Ooh factor that other school name probably have.
If sheās willing to go north, U Minnesota Duluth may be affordable (again, sheāll need to increase her test scores considerably for a dull tuition scholarship but costs arenār too high to begin with.) Umn Morris (reach), St Cloud state (safety) donāt charge OOS tuition, so run the NPC, and look at conditions for scholarships /honors college.
UMaine Farmington /Kent/presqāile would likely offer her some scholarships.
St Bonaventure and UScranton would be great choices for her.
Goucher is small but in a consortium with other colleges in the area.
Run the NPC on it, as well as Towson. (Tossing has merit).
If her curriculum rigor is strong (which i assume it is since you live in an affluent community) she could apply test optional to Denison. You could take her on a tour - Denison, Ohio Wesleyan, Capital OH, three different types of colleges. Add whatever others out want to add. After visiting Denison 's campus she may not be as reluctant to attend a college with fewer than 3,000 students. Your income there would qualify you for a lot more financial aid than at an oos directional, not to mention the difference in academic quality (run the NPC).
@MYOS1634 tbh I didnāt read all the comments. Sorry I may have missed that part.
@MYOS1634 Iām pretty sure large school trumps OOS in my daughterās mind. Believe me, Iāve tried to get her to consider smaller schools, and she was willing to visit Arcadia, since she is very much interested in study abroad. My adult daughter teaches at Allegheny, and Iād like D17 to visit there, where we would have a very personalized tour. However, after seeing West Chester right after Arcadia (same day), she vastly preferred West Chester and completely lost interest in small schools, even those with very pretty campuses. She is definitely interested in Towson (probably secondary only to Alabama) but she has very average stats for that school, so I doubt that sheād receive any merit as an out of state student. In addition, she would lose most if not all of her PA state (PHEAA) grant, so the only thing sheād get would be Pell towards the >$21000 tuition/fees, making the COA over $25000. Unfortunately, Towson uses the very poor Dept. of Education NPC.
If large school trumps everything, then have her look at Truman State, Umn Duluth, etc.
Do take her to visit Denison though. You never know and their financial aid is good.