<p>Every time I start feeling bad for indulging in “bashing” counseling at high school, another story reinforces the negative perception. </p>
<p>Here’s a post about a FULL PAY Hispanic girl with good scores and aspirations to study Engineering. Her GC recommended/encouraged her to only apply to Stanford, UNC, UVA, and VT as a safety. Check the results at:</p>
<p>Xiggi: It is NEVER the GC’s responsibility for the child’s educational future! It is the responsibility of the PARENT!!! The GC may recommend, but it is the Parent’s job to accept, or reject, said recommendation. You, of all people, should know this by now. Again, thanks for all the great SAT advice you provided my DD. She’s off to Yale.</p>
<p>HScounselor81 - like xiggi, you have nothing to apologize for. I have no doubt you are hard working and good. The thing is – for those of us even in “good” public high schools, the system simply isn’t set up so that a GC can be an effective counselor on an individual basis. There are simply too many kids assigned to one given GC – and even if she were Superman, there aren’t enough hours in the day for her to meet with all of them beyond a superficial basis, get to know / retain what’s important to them, AND understand unique family situations (this kid needs a full-ride and FA is paramount whereas that kid is full-pay money no object, this kid has parents who are sophisticated and expansive whereas that kid has parents who are afraid of letting him go out of state, this kid comes from a family with experience with elite schools whereas that kid is a first-gen college student and the parents don’t understand the process, etc.). It’s just simply impossible.</p>
<p>Couple that with what I see as a lot of provincialism. In my St. Louis-area high school, smart kids were counseled towards Wash U. In my kids’ Chicago-area high school, smart kids are counseled towards Northwestern. Fine schools, to be sure, but very rote, in-the-box thinking that assumes that every kid has parents who would just up and die if the kid left the state, or that staying close to home was an assumed <em>good thing</em>, as if airplanes didn’t exist.</p>
<p>And then couple that with what the parents are like. Honestly, even if our GC’s were to become experts on elite u’s and LAC’s all over the country, they’d be pushing water uphill to try to convince a lot of parents that they should look elsewhere other than the state flagship. So, really, why should they waste their time? What’s the point in them getting all knowledgeabout about Bowdoin and Williams and Swarthmore and Reed and Bates and Macalester when 90% of the parents are going to say “I want him within driving distance of home, and the money / FA we get is going to be the decision-maker”? Sure it’s fun to research all those colleges, but why put in the effort against a resistant parent populace? Better they focus on getting the great scholarships so some kids can go to college in the first place, than worry about the full-pay kids such as my own whose parents are already “owning” an expansive view of the process.</p>
<p>I hope that helps. It’s not an insult to GC’s; it’s just a commentary on the system as it’s set up. The resources it would take to create GC’s that provide the level of support that oldfort is referring to – frankly, I’m not sure that’s the right use of funds in a <em>public</em> school the way it is in a private school where you’re paying for that privilege.</p>
<p>This girl didn’t do her homework! Why didn’t SHE do any research on the schools she applied to? Anyone that can get a 2020 on their SAT is certainly capable of going on-line and looking up the freshman profile for any college they are considering. Why was this young lady only willing to apply to schools she had visited, yet was unable to make time on the weekends to visit more? Do you really believe that her GC told her she was a “shoe-in” at these universities with her stats or do you think she may be spinning the story just a tad?</p>
<p>Where is the student’s responsibility in the admissions process? There is so much information on line these days that the GC is almost unnecessary.</p>
<p>First of all, congrats to your daughter’s success with Yale. And thank you for your kind words directed at me. </p>
<p>As you know, I am a strong believer in self-reliance. I do indeed believe that the responsibilities start with the student, then the parents, and then the rest of the bodies you find between the four corners of your school. Fwiw, I stumbled onto this website because I had a hard time reconciling the message from my own GC. For instance, it is here that I learned about LACs, and that focusing on a UG business degree might not be the best route. </p>
<p>On the other hand, the current system is built on the principle that the public education, if given a monopoly, can and WILL serve everyone. At many schools, parental influence is viewed as nothing but meddling … until the “system” turns around and starts blaming the parents for the academic failures. </p>
<p>For many students, the word of the educators and counselors is gospel-like. How could young students know that the advice is either poor or incomplete? How many parents are there who place their entire trust in the hands of public educators?</p>
<p>Not everybody is lucky enough to have parents, friends, or siblings who are able to recognize and point out the inherent weaknesses of the “system.”</p>
<p>After viewing the system going on 10 years now, I’ve decided that the common thread is pure economics. HYPS and the like are going to continue being the preferred undergraduate gateway–at whatever cost–because whomever drops out of place will be replaced immediately by the next in line whose well-off parents can pay or game the system for their child’s admittance.</p>
<p>Highly regarded state schools–UMich, UW-Madison, UIUC, UNC, UVa, UT-Austin, most of the UC’s, and more–are on the next tier of want because the in-state enrollment is much more competitive because for financial reasons (states going broke) these U’s are forced to increase their percentage of OOS admits.</p>
<p>A lot of the non-upper-tier private schools will be hurting in the next ten years unless they start opening up their endowments for some serious merit aid, because these $50K COA’s just don’t fly anymore. Community colleges in that respect are a far better value.</p>
<p>Parents and GC’s would do well to study these inequities and direct their kids towards value rather than name, especially when darned few jobs actually are influenced by where an UG education was done. And I think the economy is already starting to take care of that.</p>
<p>Yes, the parents and the kids are ultimately responsible for doing the work for colleges. A good guidance counselor can see those kids who do not know their way around the system and whose parents are equally inexperienced. </p>
<p>The GC in the VT bound student’s case is exactly the way my GC was more than 40 years ago at a school where less than 1/3 of the kids go on to a 4 year college. He recommended one super reach, one reach, one match and one safety for me. That was better advise than most of the kids got. They were herded en mass to the safety. For those who had another school in mind, two apps were recommended. The mentioned school and the open enrollment safety.</p>
<p>My father was an education advisor and as good of a man he was, when it came to college counseling, he stunk. I had a free ride to that open enrollment safety since he was affiliated with it and he could not understand why I was looking through the college books. I applied to an unprecedented 7 schools which caused an uproar because in those days there were no computers and the copy machines were primitive and printed out brown paper. So any duplicates had to be done by carbon copies. The school secretary was furious at me because she had to type recommendations and things 3 times over to get the copies needed. The teachers actually filled out those check the box questionnaires and they were not happy having a half dozen of them to complete. </p>
<p>The GC from the referenced thread would have been progressive in the late '60s and early '70s.</p>
<p>Well, she got into her “safety” (although any school you wouldn’t want to go to can’t be called a safety).</p>
<p>This year has been a pretty brutal one for kids at our local high school. The local UC has rejected kids that I know would have gotten in with no trouble in the past. Maybe the GC got caught flatfooted as the earth moved in the opposite direction…</p>
<p>I always am amused by many of the comments on this board about paid admissions consultants. I know many of them - none of them charge the outrageous fees listed, none of them help write essays for students, and all of them follow the ethical standards of their profession. They are not all making the kind of money that a handful of high profile counselors are charging.</p>
<p>Not a single one of these consultant that I know is getting rich. Many of them charge a base rate plus hourly to help kids manage timelines, advise classes, create a realistic list - including financial or merit possibilities, and to provide a buffer between the parents and kids. </p>
<p>Many of these counselors have experience, particularly with financial aid, that high school guidance counselors do not have, or will not provide families due to confidentiality issues.</p>
<p>There are even school districts (a handful that I know of in California) that are completely eliminating guidance counselors due to budget cuts. Not every school has Naviance, either. My D’s counselor services 600 kids, with no designated college counselor. And this is a great school, hit hard by budget cutbacks. </p>
<p>I remember when my son’s guidance counselor - a spectacular lady, btw - was shocked, simply shocked that he got rejected from the “safety” school she recommended. Fortunately, my son’s college consultant was not surprised…and had given him a list of many other schools that ranged from publics to privates and he ended up at a fantastic school, that was financially affordable due to guaranteed merit scholarships. She also said that in this climate, no public school in California is a safety - especially in the impacted CSU and UC system. This was several years ago. It’s even more dire, today.</p>
<p>Speaking of assignment of blames when things go awry, we can blame the student, the parent, the GC, or simply the bad luck. Things happen for a reason. In terms of student, we have a few very bright students from our HS who had applied only to local schools. They could have gone to much better OOS or some Ivies. As 17-18 year-old kids, they have no clue and don’t know better. It is interesting to know that some of their parents are just as clueless. Some students come from broken family or parents are just too “busy” to be part of the process. Interestingly enough, some parents despise the “helicopter parents” (like us). To add to the insult to the injury, GC’s are not as competent as they should have been. The end result is obvious. I believe that kids in our small village are just as smart as any. However, without the right environment (peer pressure of getting into Ivies, demanding and hovering parents, brilliant GC’s), they are less likely to be “successful” in getting into Ivies. While getting into Ivies may not guarantee success in life, which is another topic for another thread, it does provide better opportunities in an inherently unfair world.</p>
<p>You’re right, kxc. Incoming parents, those who haven’t gone through it, really don’t know until it’s time. When D1 was a sophomore in HS, I asked a friend with a freshman in college how they paid for it–he said ‘loans’. I had no idea. Yes, in my posts I’ve been hard on GC’s but I will say that it’s gotten progressively more difficult for them. What was a slam dunk admit even 5 years ago is a maybe now, and with a 1:500 GC/student ratio at times, they don’t have time to keep up with the times. At least ours didn’t. I read CC like a demon & took charge. This forum should be mandatory reading for parents starting about their kids’ soph/junior year of HS. It’s too darn tough to go into this blindly.</p>
<p>jnm123,
Agreed. I have to give the credit to our GC who gave me the CC site link 1.5 years ago, when S1 started his senior year in high school, which is a bit late if I were to help to “package” him to be a strong candidate for HYPS. In terms of S1’s intellectual capacity and potential, he is just as smart as a kid we know who got into Harvard last year. She was very well packaged by very diligent parents. I feel sorry for my S1 for not knowing anything better and sooner. On the other hand, I felt that the road to success is still long. As long as S1 is smart and diligent, he will make it on his own. As it often said, a golden nugget will shine where ever you put it. I also agree that college admissions process is more and more of a crap shoot these days. S1 was accepted by several great state schools. Looking at the acceptance thread on CC, I was often perplexed on the decision making process. I guess I would never know some rationale behind those decisions unless I were a fly on the wall in the admissions conference room…</p>
<p>And Naviance isn’t all that useful if the kids in your school don’t typically have expansive lists. </p>
<p>Here’s an example of a piece of “advice” I received from a GC (in the context of S being interested in Georgetown): “Oh, yes, being from the midwest would be a real hook, they’re really trying to expand their geography.” Yes, that’s right, there’s hardly anyone from the greater Chicago area who would ever think of applying to Georgetown, and boy, that sure would be a novelty @@. I can just see them in the admissions office: “Illinois! Never seen one of THOSE before! Admit that kid!” (That’s my eyes rolling)</p>
<p>HSCounselor81 - here’s another thing that just frosted me.
CTCL, 8 of the Great, and various other college consortiums come to this area, and often hold their info sessions at a hotel one town over. Was there EVER any communication about this so interested students could go? Nope. None, nada. </p>
<p>And then the GC’s scratch their heads and wonder why their kids don’t go to the selective schools that some of the other hs send their kids to! Well, duh.</p>
<p>And here was the kicker - the first meeting for parents / students to kick off the process was AFTER SPRING BREAK in junior year. By that time, my kids had already done all of their college visits, taken ACT’s twice, and were signed up for SAT II’s and AP’s in May and June so we had a good idea of what they were reasonable candidates for - and we were in the process of ranking choices and preparing for early decision in the fall. The naive parents who didn’t understand the system? That was a horrendous time to start. Way too late to take advantage of any ED boost. I was decidedly unimpressed.</p>
<p>We had our shares of experiences with good and bad GC. The whole Jr. H where both kids attended had one GC. Her recommendation of extra works for advanced students were - learn how to use excel so you know how to make a table. </p>
<p>When we moved here. Both kids interviewed three HS and the GC who shown them around won their vote. This is a HS in a very well to do area and they have 5 GC for about 750 kids. </p>
<p>One thing I have mentioned many times on CC is that your GC is not just for college admission. If you did not get to know them until the Jr. year, you missed out all the opportunities.</p>
<p>We visited the HS whenever there was a chance. Ther were so many things that we worked with the GC to help our kids over all the years in HS. At the end, that help the GC to know our kids and us. The GC told us that they could write a more personal letter because they know us so well. </p>
<p>From another angle, the experiences of GC at HS definitely play a role in college admission. Years after years they deal with top tier schools who come to visit. They do have a relationship with the regional person. If there were two students with exactly the same of everything else. The student from this HS will win over a less known HS, IHMO.</p>
<p>If you going in with the mindset that HS GC could not help your ultra gifted kids, you probably would not get anything.</p>
<p>Just as a comment that schools are different, Dad II–The GC’s in our local schools felt that it was inappropriate for them to interact with parents, at all. They made that obvious from the initial orientation to the high school. Other things were not as obvious. Because parents were kept at arm’s length, or farther, I had a hard time figuring out some of the aspects of the school’s philosophy and practices that were very different from my own high school, although both were “good” suburban high schools. </p>
<p>Something I have learned repeatedly on CC: High schools are very different, even if the demographics are superficially the same. Statements based on the experiences in a particular place should be regarded as having an implicit “ymmv.”</p>
<p>Wow, Pizzagirl. You listed many things in your post that just make me sad.</p>
<p>One piece of advice by our counseling department that upset me this year for my D was to wait until the fall of senior year to take SAT/ACT and SAT II. If you were really proactive, than maybe take a test in spring of junior year. Lest I think it was just misunderstood, several of her classmates confirmed this late testing policy advice. Dumb. </p>
<p>That one left me scratching my head.</p>
<p>My daughter has done college visits, taken both the ACT (twice) and SAT (once-taking again in June and the SAT II in May). If she needs to, she can still take an extra exam in the fall - as a backup, not the primary plan. She is already talking to possible recommenders right now, and has a college list created.</p>
<p>True about the geographical diversity hook. It’s a nice one, but certainly not unique - and if the student doesn’t have the grades and test scores, its not going to do the trick. Even then, it may just be one more kid from out of the area that may not matriculate and maybe not even get admitted, because the college doesn’t think the student really wants to attend. See Tufts Syndrome!</p>
<p>I think the thing that concerns me most about the college lists and advice from Guidance Counselors is that they don’t pay attention to the costs of attendance. Even a family with an EFC of zero may often still have a financial liability, and may still have loans to have to pay back. I know one young man this year who has a zero EFC and the parent plus loans and student loans for this school are still in the scary range for his family. Nowadays, I know more kids who choose their final schools based on the best financial aid that they received in spring of senior year, as opposed to the best school that they got into!</p>
<p>I haven’t started the whole college process with my GC, but I’ve told her about what I want to do, and she’s very supportive. I go in to see her all the time, and sometimes she knows me better than I know myself! I’ve managed to have a great relationship with her despite my school’s large population. </p>
<p>My dad knows a college consultant, and I have decided to work with him because it would be less pressure on me (from parents), and it can be a great learning experience. I’m only interested in one college in my state (which is still a good school) b/c it’s the only one that offers my intended major, all the rest are out of state. And my parents are expecting me to make up the immense difference in cost, which is a lot of pressure. And working with this college consultant will help me get some money (hopefully) as well as create potential options for me. Also, my parents are expecting that the possible money this consultant can help me get will also cover the cost of his service…in addition to any out-of-state costs. </p>
<p>Fair? Not entirely. Ethical? Yes. The college process is about the applicant’s accomplishments and attributes, and the consultant’s job is to highlight those features. From a business standpoint: would the consultant honestly want to overstep boundaries that could not only cost him his client (and the client’s chances) but his entire service (and reputation)? Not likely. Also, I have my own personal morals that I will uphold during the college process. Sure, the consultant will steer me in the right direction with my essays, but I would never allow ANYBODY to write them for me! The essay is an applicant’s best chance to show who they are as a person, not just a student, and how can anybody represent who I am, better than myself? And if I get rejected from such-and-such college, then it wasn’t meant to be. </p>
<p>Working with a college consultant won’t guarantee anybody admission to a particular college, but the consultant will make sure that no matter where his/her client ends up, it will be a good fit and the student will be happy there, even if it’s not their first choice.</p>
<p>“…No, but if you have to pay someone to do it for you it may mean you do not have enough faith in your ability to do it yourself…”</p>
<p>The result pretty much all came out. The girl with the paid help gets into 3 prestigious 8-yr medical programs (Baylor/Rice, USC, UCSD) and all other schools.</p>
<p>In our case, we didn’t hire any one, my son has excellent stat and leaderships in ECs, he sets the curves for two classes and tutored his classmates. The irony was that the tutored classmates got in the same school where my son got waitlisted. That is discouraging for him. I don’t think this helps his faith that much.</p>
<p>If I would do this again, I would definitely hire one of those GCs to help package the apps. I am naive to think that it is NOT the norm when in fact it is a normal practice among our families here.</p>
<p>Regarding private schools and the perceived and/or real “connections” they have -</p>
<p>I have heard three separate stories this week about three separate, very prestigious private schools in California. In each case, the students and parents were blindsided by rejections and waitlists, having put their faith in the fact that their schools were a direct line to admissions, all other factors (SATs, GPAs, etc) being equal to other applicants - connections, school name, etc tilting the scales in their favor.</p>
<p>Private school applicants and their parents are lulled into a sense of security by all of the above factors, and fail to take into account the Ivies and top schools desire to create a diverse, interesting, and dynamic group for each admitted class. Top performing students at private schools have become a dime a dozen, so to speak. It’s the unique and special that is in vogue these days.</p>
<p>On another note, be cautious when hiring a private college consultant - though they serve a purpose, they also have their own agenda, and look for a good yield, much like the colleges do, to present to prospective clients. This can lead to students being steered towards schools where admission is highly likely, vs where they are a good fit.</p>
<p>Wow. Call me naive, but I didn’t even know “college consultants” existed. </p>
<p>I’ll be sure to thank my public school educated daughter again for her personal diligence in getting into every school to which she applied, including two top 10 LACs and the toughest school in our state. </p>
<p>I don’t even know what her essays were about. They were her responsibility to write, and to submit correctly and on time. </p>
<p>If parents would spend more time conveying responsibility to their children and less time interviewing tutors, test taking schools, and consultants, they may end up with better results. Once the kid gets to college they need the responsibility and organizational skills anyway. If they can’t apply to schools themselves, they just might not figure out how to make it to class if they <em>do</em> get in.</p>