Parent loan information please!

Parents Forum
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<p>pugmadkate: you are right. I talked to the Pratt finantial office today and they told me it was normal. They have told me that average dept their student have when they graduate from their college was $100,000. And that some people have more.
So I came to conclude that Pratt is an expensive art school designed for riches.</p>

<p>We are looking into another option. Talked to my daughter about it and she got really upset. She says she will not feel motivated if she would go to another school.</p>

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<p>That’s exactly correct, just like Ferrari’s are cars for the wealthy. My kids will not be attending Pratt or drive Ferrari’s, either. <sigh></sigh></p>

<p>Your D doesn’t have to study at Pratt to be an industrial designer. There are a lot of schools where she can get a great education that won’t cost $100,000.</p>

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<p>We are looking into another option. Talked to my daughter about it and she got really upset. She says she will not feel motivated if she would go to another school.</p>

<p>Well, it’s better that she be very upset for a day, a week, or even a month or two, then to have absolute financial catastrophe for a decade or more.</p>

<p>where else was she accepted?</p>

<p>There may have been a time when Pratt students were arm-twisted into taking on Sallie Mae loans for $100k, but the lending rules have changed because of the recent bank crisis. Now, it’s hard for students to take on that kind of debt since they’re now required to make interest only payments throughout college…which many couldn’t pay.</p>

<p>Show the below to your daughter…</p>

<p>Pratt has a very dirty history with big student loans…</p>

<p>*
Pratt Institute, btw, was one of the institutions of higher learning that was exposed by NY State Attorney General Andrew Cuomo for receiving kickbacks from student loan lenders to steer student business their way regardless of cost to the student…</p>

<p>**Danielle Fennoy - is drowning in debt as a result of her student loans:
**
Fennoy had visions of making it as an interior designer and eventually buying a big Brooklyn brownstone when she moved to New York six years ago from Pasadena, Calif.</p>

<pre><code>But the $95,000 in student loans Fennoy took on to finance a master’s degree in interior design from the Pratt Institute in Brooklyn are derailing her plans.

While Fennoy will take in about $55,000 this year from her Tribeca-based business, Make Design, and from teaching spin classes at a Brooklyn gym, she won’t have much to show for it.

More than one quarter of her $36,744 after-tax income goes toward paying back her student loans. Add on her $850-a-month share of the rent, and other living and entertainment expenses, and Fennoy’s average monthly tab exceeds her income by $1,068.

To pay her bills, Fennoy taps her Visa credit card with its 19.95% interest rate (she owes $1,637), and her rapidly depleting bank account, which has shrunk to $6,100 from $10,000 in the last two years.

“At the end of the day, I go home to my debts,” Fennoy said. “It’s such a weight on my shoulders.”*
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<p>~snipped~ Read a lot more here…</p>

<p><a href=“NYC Educator – Just another WordPress site”>http://nyceducator.com/2007/10/loan-to-learn-debt-for-life.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>OP- there are all kinds of students at Pratt so you can’t generalize just from the financial aid information. There are kids who commute from home (no dorm expenses) and whose parents, although living a modest life style, have saved for years to finance college. There are kids who do indeed come from very wealthy backgrounds. There are adult students who are at Pratt as a “second degree”- someone I know who made it big when a company he started went public is now at Pratt studying his “true love”, i.e. not what he studied as an 18 year old when his parents were paying the bills.</p>

<p>None of these people have any bearing on what you can and cannot afford RIGHT NOW. There are industrial designers who are earning a comfortable living 10+ years after finishing their degrees, and others who are working as substitute teachers on the side to help pay the rent. It is extremely rare for someone right out of school to be earning a significant salary as an industrial designer, such that they could help repay their loans without very substantial effort. Is your daughter prepared to move back home to economize once she finishes college and starts to work? Will she take the bus to work and brown bag her lunch? If she has visions of living like a TV character (NY is so glamorous for the 20 somethings on TV! Nice apartment, nice clothes, they go to nice restaurants and parties) but the reality of paying back loans at that level is just nowhere near as glamorous. It will be a lot of spartan living for all of you for many years.</p>

<p>And finally- I don’t mean this at all critically, just to be realistic- if you were not able to save $500 a month or so for her college education for the last 18 years, what is going to change so that you can come up with $500 a month to repay her college loans going forward? In my experience, people’s financial futures look remarkably similar to their past. If you meant to save but every month something happened- muffler on the car fell off, the refrigerator died, unexpected dental work that wasn’t covered by insurance, etc… well, fact is, these things are going to continue to happen, even with your daughter at Pratt. Don’t think your household appliances are going to decide to live on forever just because you have college loans. All the things that tripped you up saving for her college fund in the past will continue to happen… but now you’re in debt.</p>

<p>So maybe it’s time for a good old fashioned walk around the block. You explain that whether she lives in the double dorm room you can’t afford or the triple dorm room you can’t afford, it makes no difference. You can’t afford it. Her friend at RISD, other rich people, none of this matters. You and D need to come up with a plan for a college education which you can afford. And she needs a reality check asap.</p>

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<p>Please, as everyone else says, PLEASE rethink this strategy. I highly doubt she could pay back her loans on a salary as a designer, especially for the first few years out of school.</p>

<p>Honestly, I can’t believe Pratt has told you there’s no alternative. If you are low-income, there has to be a better way than $100k in loans.</p>

<p>Have you tried HEOP? It’s for low-income students. I was a HEOP student. And I’m grateful for it. When I started at Pratt, I had $200 to my name. And coming out of the New York City Public Schools in 1984, it was a low point for the school system. This was before the massive infusion of money to try and improve the educational system. I was very often the only one in my classes who just graduated from a NYC public school. </p>

<p>I don’t understand how Pratt can do this. You may need to be a bit more persuasive or look into other options.</p>

<p>I know that Industrial Design isn’t a common major. So there may not be many cheap alternatives. And on top of that, your daughter may have to leave NYC to work in the field. NYC doesn’t manufacture anything. </p>

<p>I literally don’t know what I would do with such a large debt. Especially if you live in NYC and have to deal with the high cost of living. I don’t know how Architecture students leave school with $100k in debt from Pratt, and try to pay it off with the not-so-good salaries the field offers. That is, if you can even find a job in architecture.</p>

<p>Your daughter WILL like it at Pratt. But the cost is too high and will cripple her as well as you for a very long time.</p>

<p>Again, talk to Pratt again, and see what else can be done. I simply can’t believe this!</p>

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<p>Has your daughter ever seen “Cinderella”? I know I did as a kid. I so wanted a handsome prince to come to my rescue, see my inner worth (instead of my external chunky thighs!) and take me away to a lovely castle where servants dealt with floor sweeping and grocery shopping. </p>

<p>Please tell your daughter that you are up against some hard choices. There is no handsome prince. If you sign the loans, you will be bankrupt in your old age and that is not fair to her. She will feel guilty and ashamed. If you don’t sign the loans, then you will disappoint her and that about breaks your heart. “Wishing” for another choice is not Option # 3. </p>

<p>So, you have to be very, very firm about what you can afford. If you can afford $100 a month, say so. It is up to her to fill in the void. She can work, she can apply for scholarships, she can choose a cheaper school, she can borrow the money herself (maybe). She could also join the military or Americorps and save up some money that way. </p>

<p>There may be other options. But you are going to have to tell her that you do not have a magic wand. You signing these loans is not the solution. </p>

<p>This is going to be an ugly situation. Please tell her that you should have figured this out sooner and apologize to her for not understanding the loan process better.</p>

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<p>oh wow… the story of Fennoy is frightening.
I talked to my daughter and she got very upset with me but she understood and agreed to looking into other options.
She is concerned that her starting income for industrial design will change for not graduating from Pratt. Says that PRATT is #1 school for industrial design and that if she graduates from a weaker college, her starting income will be lower.
I dont really know about that but I dont want to put our family into huge dept.
So we decided not to go to Pratt. and ofcourse my daughter hates me right now.</p>

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<p>My company has many industrial designers. Quite a few of them went to a state college for two years then transferred to Pratt, Art Center, Cleveland, CCS and other very prestigious schools for ID simply because of the cost which are crazy and have been for decades. The “degree” you carry around with you is from the college you graduate from…not the school you start at. Why not “split” the difference with your daughter and have her go somewhere affordable for two years and then transfer to a very good school for the balance.</p>

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<p>OP - I am glad to hear you have rethought this choice. There have been several mentions of educational loans forcing bankruptcy in the future. Bankruptcy may come in the future if a family borrows too much but the educational debt will survive. Loans for education are virtually impossible to discharge through bankruptcy since the reform act of 2005. Your daughter should browse through the voices section of projectonstudentdebt.com to help her realize you are holding the line on this to save her dreams, not kill them.</p>

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<p>I see so many stories here of parents taking out big PLUS loans. </p>

<p>I am confused? Is it that the EFC is unrealistic, and families with negligible ability to pay anything have EFC’s of 10k or above? Is it because the school failed to meet need, and the parents have to pay more than the EFC? </p>

<p>At the schools our DD is considering, the schools meet need one way or the other. The EFC is scary, but even if we decide to take out PLUS loans, it will certainly not be for anything like ALL of the EFC. We are not rich. But we can pay SOMETHING out of current income. Certainly we will begin our payments on any PLUS loans right away.</p>

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<p>Says that PRATT is #1 school for industrial design and that if she graduates from a weaker college, her starting income will be lower.</p>

<p>First of all, I highly doubt your D’s starting salary will be different if she graduates from elsewhere. Even if she were to start <em>slightly</em> lower, that is NO BIG deal since she won’t be paying back huge debt.</p>

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<p>*
I am confused? Is it that the EFC is unrealistic, and families with negligible ability to pay anything have EFC’s of 10k or above? Is it because the school failed to meet need, and the parents have to pay more than the EFC? *</p>

<p>EFC is a federal number. It doesn’t mean anything to schools except to be used to figure out what federal benefits a student might qualify for. </p>

<p>Most schools cannot meet so-called “need.” Schools aren’t charities, and they don’t charge a “sliding scale” based on some number FAFSA comes up with. </p>

<p>The term EFC is confusing.</p>

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<p>She will not be making enough to cover her loans and that is the figure that counts. </p>

<p>Also, while it may be true that the starting salary would be higher, eventually that evens out. A foot in the door and the higher starting salary are nice but she will have to earn the right to stay and be promoted, like everyone else. Not being crushed by debt and the stress that goes with that will surely make her a better employee.</p>

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<p>I apologize if I am confusing you with another parent but I think you were the one on a different thread who was defending the idea of letting your daughter go 80K in debt for undergrad. How is that meeting need?</p>

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<p>“I apologize if I am confusing you with another parent but I think you were the one on a different thread who was defending the idea of letting your daughter go 80K in debt for undergrad. How is that meeting need”</p>

<p>its making it possible to come up with the cash to go to to the school. By meeting need I am simply referring to a package of loans, and whatever else that meets the difference between EFC and total cost. That those loans need to be paid back, and the implications for future lifestyle need to be considered, does not change that from meeting need as the term is used, IIUC. </p>

<p>And please don’t use anything about our personal situation (which I think you are misremembering) in a different thread.</p>

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<p>"Most schools cannot meet so-called “need.” Schools aren’t charities, and they don’t charge a “sliding scale” based on some number FAFSA comes up with. "</p>

<p>there are of course thousands of schools, and I cannot speak to more than a tiny fraction of them. </p>

<p>Most of the private schools we looked at did claim to meet all or close to all of need, though with packages including mostly loans in many instances. I do not think they do that out of charity (though technically, they are charities under the tax laws, BTW) but out of their own institutional strategies. </p>

<p>But what you are saying, the condescension stripped out, is that these are cases where the schools do not give aid (including student loans) that match the gap between EFC and total cost, so the parents must pay an amount well in excess of EFC.</p>

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<p>Re: PLUS loans. If we only has S, I could see maybe taking these on. We have a high EFC, and cannot meet a good portion of it with current income and savings. </p>

<p>But we have 2 more coming down the road. We’d still be paying PLUS loans for S, then have to take them on for the other 2, assuming we’d qualify?</p>

<p>We’d never be able to retire. So in our case PLUS loans are a bad idea. Any school that does not give our child a large merit scholarship or has a more realistic COA is just not doable.</p>

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<p>OP:</p>

<p>Take a quick look at U of WI-Stout. They have industrial design. The out of state total cost of attendance will be $21,000. This includes a computer and other fees!
[Tuition</a> and Other Costs (Undergraduate)](<a href=“http://www.uwstout.edu/admissions/costs.shtml]Tuition”>http://www.uwstout.edu/admissions/costs.shtml)
[url=<a href=“Admissions & Aid”>Admissions & Aid]Art[/url</a>]</p>

<p>Call them and see if they are still accepting applications. I wouldn’t be surprised if they still are.</p>

<p>In my extended family we are going through the same issue. The student has been accepted to an expensive art school that the parents can’t afford and she refuses to consider the other colleges she has been accepted to. The parents are saying no while paying for her deposit!? I have no idea how this is going to resolve for them. Their strategy is prayer. No kidding.</p>

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<p>*I am confused? Is it that the EFC is unrealistic, and families with negligible ability to pay anything have EFC’s of 10k or above? Is it because the school failed to meet need, and the parents have to pay more than the EFC?</p>

<p>EFC is a federal number. It doesn’t mean anything to schools except to be used to figure out what federal benefits a student might qualify for.</p>

<p>Most schools cannot meet so-called “need.” Schools aren’t charities, and they don’t charge a “sliding scale” based on some number FAFSA comes up with.</p>

<p>The term EFC is confusing. *</p>

<p>* there are of course thousands of schools, and I cannot speak to more than a tiny fraction of them.</p>

<p>Most of the private schools we looked at did claim to meet all or close to all of need, though with packages including mostly loans in many instances. I do not think they do that out of charity (though technically, they are charities under the tax laws, BTW) but out of their own institutional strategies.</p>

<p>But what you are saying, the condescension stripped out, is that these are cases where the schools do not give aid (including student loans) that match the gap between EFC and total cost, so the parents must pay an amount well in excess of EFC. *</p>

<p>Since a Plus Loan can be taken out regardless of whether one is listed in the FA package or there is a gap, putting one in FA package should not really be considered “meeting need,” otherwise every school could do that. It doesn’t cost a school anything to throw a Plus Loan in there to cover gaps or even to cover EFC.</p>

<p>You asked the question; I answered it. If you think the answer is condescending, then so be it. Your question suggests a confusion about schools don’t meet need. That suggests that a misunderstanding that schools charge a “sliding scale” based on an EFC number.</p>

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<p>twomules, a lot of people are uninformed or misinformed about the whole process. I know we were. We started looking at expensive privates schools for S that were kind of a reach - meaning he wouldn’t get any merit aid. We assumed we’d take out loans, that was what we understood the process to be, and the colleges and our own guidance counselors did not disabuse of that notion.</p>

<p>I am so thankful I found CC and got an education about what this would mean for us if we just ‘did what everyone else does’ . It would have been a financial disaster for S and ourselves.</p>

<p>Finding this out early enough in the game, I was able to explain this to S and steer him in a more realistic direction. I could very much see us having the same problem as the OP or your relatives. If we realized this all at the last moment and sprang it on S, he’d be a very unhappy camper about now. Understandably so.</p>