<p>My engineering son told me about REU. He applied freshman year, but did not get an offer. (That was as expected - he mostly did it to get the practice). The next year he did research/programming at his own campus, but not sure it was a real REU.</p>
<p>“If students don’t hear back from REUs then how are they supposed to plan their summer?” - Start making other plans. It’s much like job hunting, where sadly applicants often don’t hear back. Tis crazy because in this world of email and websites it would be easier than ever to reply to the applicants.</p>
<p>It’s likely school-year research was somewhat ignored since research done during a summer as either an REU or internship is a very different beast than a semester. If you put in 10 hours a week, it’ll take you a month to do what you’d have been able to do in a week over the summer. Often, less since you have a lot less start up/tear down time.</p>
<p>Deciding which classes to skip from AP credits can be difficult. My daughter is finishing her freshman year in computer engineering. One piece of advice the dean gave about using AP credits - if you’re surprised to see a good score on the AP test - take the class. If you expected the good score and received it, you can usually skip the class.
She took AP credit for 2 semesters of calculus, chemistry with lab, and the first semester of physics. She did well in both math classes this year (she is an extremely strong math student) and physics seems to be going well (she’s taking it now). She was also at a difficult, competitive high school.</p>
<p>Your child shouldn’t be afraid to take the AP credits if they are really comfortable with the material. There are so many required courses in engineering, it’s nice to have some space in the schedule for minors or just other classes they are interested in. She’s really glad she placed out of some of the intro classes. </p>
<p>As always, it all depends on the student. I don’t think taking a class for an easy A is a good idea. It can backfire - you don’t work as hard and next thing you know - it’s a B. And yes, I was an engineer as well. Many of the engineers I knew placed out of at least one semester of calculus.</p>
<p>Seems like the dean should just hand out the old final exams of the courses that may be skipped with AP credits (or the web site where they can be downloaded) and say “try these final exams; you should be able to tell whether you want to skip the course with your AP credit after doing so.”</p>
<p>Depends on the U. At S’s HS, they all expected and received great AP scores for Calc, physics and Comp Sci. Their U still made everyone retake unless you challenged. Most simply retook AND got AP credit added to the credits they entered with. It gave the students a comfortable cushion for engineering GPA to start off with. Thevfewcwho challenged worked a bit harder and were ok too.</p>
<p>Assuming a school other than one like Caltech or Harvey Mudd (where “frosh calculus” is more like real analysis), that seems to be more like a tuition maximization motive on the part of the school, since many (though not all) students coming from high school AP calculus are ready to go on to the next level of math in college, rather than waste time and tuition repeating what they already know.</p>
<p>Depends on how interested the students are in challenging vs just settling in. Most opted to just settle in and preserve cushion to keep their merit awards.</p>
<p>Checking old exams is a good idea. My S at UIUC was able to get out of a further math class (post Calc) by going to the math library (cool idea, huh?) and checking out exams for the class. He decided he could do the work so was able to arrange to test out. I <em>think</em> it was the Multivariable Calc that his HS offered to post AP students.</p>
<p>Thank you QuantMech and the rest of you for the information on REU’s</p>
<p>Taking the AP credit vs not taking it is an individual decision. My S grappled with that question twice with Calc and each time opted to retake the class over the AP credit. For some incoming freshmen just adjusting to college life is enough of an initial challenge and starting off with some familiar material helps to make the road smoother. My S wasn’t surprised by his AP 5 on BC calculus but still found that his college Calc 1 was more challenging than the AP class. Since he had to withdraw second semester due to illness he again thought he might use the credit for calc2. Once he was well enough he caught up with the calc 2 class from home, and has kept up with it, including taking tests online. It surprised me but when it came time for registration he decided to take Calc2 rather than 3 next semster. For whatever reason he decided that taking it would have him better prepared for calc 3. We supported him with whatever decision he made. There is not one easy answer. I’m satisfied that he gave it a lot of consideration and chose what he felt was the best way to go for him.</p>
<p>What I always find interesting is that at many schools, a student who retakes a language class for an easy A by misrepresenting their level of preparation can be dropped in mid-semester if this is discovered, risking academic probation, while a student who excels while repeating material in an intro STEM class is lauded as an “excellent” and “talented” student. In all fairness to students, sometimes schools indeed make it very difficult for students to skip intro classes.</p>
<p>I do not think this is fair to true beginners, especially in curved classes, and wish more schools would take student baseline into account when assigning students to entry level classes and recitations. While an experienced student can usually manage if instruction is poor or geared to students who have already seen most of the material in an AP, IB, or DE class, an inexperienced student in this situation might need to find a tutor for several hours a week, repeat the class (after a W or poor grade), or conclude that a poor or even failing grade is a result of lack of talent or poor study skills rather than sloppy placement policies or poor teaching or classroom management.</p>
<p>Sometimes a bad experience in a single class can spill over and poison an entire semester as a student neglects other classes, or change the course of a student’s life if they need to change majors (if they fall behind in a sequence and need to graduate in eight semesters) or drop any dreams of medical school.</p>
<p>Some schools do have placement exams or accelerated sequences for students who have already taken part or most of the calc 1 through differential equations sequence in high school, and I can understand how this might be attractive to an engineering or physical science student chomping at the bit to get into smaller
upper-level classes. Larger schools with eclectic student bodies also sometimes run several sections of chemistry, physics, or intro CS classes to accommodate students with various backgrounds and interests.</p>
<p>Frazzled, I think you are right. The student who goes into engineering as a true beginner in calculus is at a disadvantage and will probably need to be prepared to put in more time; especially if they go to a school like my S’s that discourages using AP credit for calculus. While the school does have placement exams these only test for readiness for calc and not level of proficiency in it. Kids who test as not being ready for calc are required to take a precalc class. </p>
<p>S’s school stresses that proficiency in HS AP calc does not mean the student is ready for calc 3 and there aren’t any advanced beginner classes in calc as there are in language classes in some schools. </p>
<p>Retaking calc with a strong AP score isn’t the same as retaking a language for an easy A. The retake isn’t for the easy A it is to maximize the possibility for success at the next level and in the overall program.</p>
<p>Life is never a level playing field. In physics I heard my S mention that if he got one prof he would have to go to tutoring and with another he would not. There are many variables but all things are never equal, all our kids can do is the best they can do with the hand they are dealt and the choices they make.</p>
<p>I think that frazzled2thecore makes interesting points in #770. On the other hand, the situation varies a lot from university to university and what’s advisable depends a lot on high school background.</p>
<p>At my university, a student can enroll in a beginning language course regardless of prior background. There is no check on previous knowledge. I once talked with a native speaker of a foreign language who had decided to enroll in first year courses in that language, in order to raise her GPA as a pre-med. I tried to point out to her gently that the medical schools would see this for the ruse it was, but that had no effect.</p>
<p>The situation with math is a difficult one. The requirements for a 5 on AP calculus are relatively low, in terms of the per cent score on the exam. This means that students can score a 5 and still have quite different levels of preparation. Also, the way in which the calculus class is taught affects the students’ mastery of the topics. Some of the high school calculus teachers emphasize insight, but not all do. The AP calc exams do not really yield to a “recipe-based” approach to the test, but I think that one could succeed with some combination of understanding + patterned approaches.</p>
<p>In any event, I agree with frazzled2thecore that universities really ought to separate out students with prior experience with STEM subjects and languages from the “raw” beginners in an area.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think that spectrum2’s son made sensible decisions, in the sense that a deep understanding of calculus is essential for further work in physics or mathematics, engineering, and much of chemistry. High school courses may not be able to convey that level of understanding.</p>
<p>Life isn’t fair either but you have to make do with what you have.</p>
<p>Today, we have free online courses, video lectures, textbooks, forums that will provide free help that students can review and play around with before taking a course. Students can go through actual college materials in the summer before they start. I’m not really a fan of AP course - our son did dual-enrollment courses at state universities and his preparation was quite a bit better than what was needed.</p>
In many cases I don’t really see how this would be possible. At my grad school there were 2-3 sections of Physics I each semester, with 180 students each. Students enrolled in one according to which teacher they wanted or to what fit their schedule times best. It wouldn’t have been feasible to test and sort that many students into so few sections. </p>
<p>Even in the math department, where there were dozens of smaller sections for each course, trying to test and sort the student body would have been onerous. And are you really going to tell a student that he/she can’t take the only course that fits into his schedule because he is likely to destroy the curve and prevent someone from passing with a low grade? </p>
<p>Personally, I don’t curve in my classes, and this is one of the reasons why. It should be you against the material, not you against your classmates.</p>
<p>sylvan, my undergrad school did actually require every incoming student to take a math placement test. They then looked at the courses you took, your AP scores, and chose a math class to put you into. The math classes were broken up into quarters, so students could be put in right where their knowledge left off. They also had different classes for kids with backgrounds in calc but needed a refresher versus the students that hadn’t taken calc before. Most people I knew that didn’t get out of freshman calc, but had experience tested out of the first term, but had to start with the second quarter of calc in the first half of the first semester. That way, people with a background were able to be separated fairly reasonably from those without.</p>
<p>This sounds like a school with a higher level of service; perhaps a lot different from state universities under budget pressures. The amount of math that you have can make it a lot easier when you take Physics I. If you’ve already had Calc, then you have an advantage over those taking it as a co-requisite.</p>
Congratulations and praise the Lord. Ya see, sometimes the storm looks and feels rougher at the edge, until you get to the eye and the calm. Can’t wait to hear about the future job offer and how HE plans to fund your retirement.