<p>TM-that is a ton of work!</p>
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Well we parents know our kids best, I donât consider that a bad description of my oldest. Luckily as heâs gotten older heâs gotten more aware of what social niceties are expected. My impression is that heâs a lot more social at college where there are many, many more kids who share his interests.</p>
<h1>Theorymom, boy what a way to ruin senior year. Thankfully we donât have any such thing, though many less high achieving seniors are trying to pass Regentâs tests to graduate. (Thankfully my kids should be done this year with those requirements.)</h1>
<p>missypie I would so very much like to know the name of that school so I could write a cordial but direct note to the donkeys in question.</p>
<h1>tm you have had me teary over the last few pages.</h1>
<p>gooo chintzygirl!!!</p>
<p>TOS I couldnât agree more. My two have always had each other and until this year they have remained close with a group of similarly minded girls. The edges of their group are fraying as they become less similarly minded. Still I am grateful for them as a group because they gave my quiet studious introverts a place to be.</p>
<p>mathmom: My twinE is very self-contained too. Exclusion hasnât seemed to bother her the way it would bother me in her position and the way it bothers me as her mother. 5th grade I walked over to her school and saw in the softball dug out my little E sitting all alone on the end of the bench. At the other end was a group of 3 or 4 girls giggling and having fun. I cried but didnât approach them. When I asked her later if that had been a sad thing fr her she replied âWhy would it? They arenât my friends.â Much more highly evolved than her mommy.</p>
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<p>Missypie, unfortunately our jock son probably walks down the hall at school and literally does not see kids outside his social circle. He also assumes that the kids âdonât seeâ him in return. It would not occur to him that he is being exclusionist or rude. It is more like walking down a busy street in NYC and not noticing who you pass on the sidewalk. I think if he happened to interact with someone outside his normal social circle, for example if he were assigned somebody as a lab partner, that he would be outgoing and friendly to that person in that instance and then not notice them in the hall ten minutes later. In college, I think the groupings still exist (football players hang out with their teammates), but to the extent students have chosen a college that is a good social fit it is easier to find a group of like-minded peers than in high school and therefore fewer people care who hangs out with whom, if they ever did in high school. </p>
<p>It is commonplace for the some of the best football or basketball players to also be top 10% students with heavy AP loads. Academic status does not seem to be nearly as much of a dividing factor as status of the sport (football is not the same as soccer) as well as status on the team (second string football might be lower status than first string soccer). However, most social groupings really come down to recreational preferences (gaming, shooting hoops, jamming to music, playing poker, etc.). Obviously, kids hang out with other kids who share the same interests. There is no question, however, that hierarchies exist and it is comforting to be at the top of the hierarchyâthink Mary Tyler Moore. Our son might be upset that he netted less money in the schoolâs bachelor auction than somebody else, but he clearly knows in the social pecking order that just being one of the bachelorâs in the auction places him in a certain comfort zone.</p>
<p>Personally, I am an introvert but both boys and H are extroverts. My boys tell me their friends consider me to be very scary. I donât mean to be scary, but so be it. People do move beyond high school and get comfortable with where they fit in the world.</p>
<p>TOS, to close the loop, I donât think I was intending to say anything derogatory. I was distinguishing between inclination and a lack of social skills or a mindset that prevented them from engaging effectively. I donât think any intervention is appropriate or beneficial for someone who doesnât have a strong inclination for social interaction but has the social skills to get what they want out of the interactions they do have. These are the people who I intended to describe when I said they are âquiet because they donât care about social interaction.â No comment there on anything relating to skills or mindset. And I am not making any kind of negative statements about them. They are getting what they want from the world. It may be different from what I want, but Iâm not making the judgment that because theyâre not getting what I want, they have a problem. They are OK just the way they are. OK?</p>
<p>The people who I care about are the people who arenât getting what they want from the world. Theyâre scared to speak up in social situations. They donât get the information they need from teachers. They donât make friends. They are shy â theyâd like more interaction or more from their interactions but they are afraid to or donât know how to get it. Their mindset or need for additional skills is holding them back from growth and reaching their potential in some dimensions. The boy who doesnât go on dates may do so because he thinks girls are going to reject him and doesnât do the upfront conversation needed to get stimulate their interest. So, he doesnât ask or if he does, the poor girl doesnât really know him enough to say yes. The rejection in fact confirms what he believes. [I wonder if thatâs connected to why Rochestermomâs daughterâs geek prom date was so anxious; a sweet kid who was worried that heâd screwed things up before he started.] Such a kid may even to himself say, âIâm not interested in going out with girls. Theyâre too much of a hassleâ when the underlying cognition is âGirls are going to reject me.â With some tutoring on how to talk with people, broken into little bits, he may learn the skills he needs to attract interest and get small yeses. Every yes will break down the invalid thought that âgirls are going to reject me.â Similarly, I was concerned about the girl who was so shy that she didnât ask the teacher questions that she really wanted the know the answer to. Sheâs not getting what she wants from a social interaction. They are both different from the person who really just likes to be by himself but gets what he wants from the social interactions he has (e.g., no problem asking the teacher questions when he has them) and doesnât go out on dates because he actually prefers to read his book.</p>
<p>Does that distinction make sense?</p>
<p>it makes for interesting discussion.I think we evolve as we get older. I have learned to be more superficial, to get by. It is also hard to be an introvert because there are less of them. MY D1 and H are extroverts too,but my husband doesnât like noise and commotion so I guess thatâs why he likes me.
I have only been reading this is for about a month but all give interesting insights and things to think about.</p>
<p>I went from barely being able to talk to someone on the phone in my early teens to training large groups of adults. Evolution happens!</p>
<p>Sonâs awards ceremony was last night. His name was pronounced correctly, his college wasnât. To be fair, I think thereâs only a small number of people who can pronounce âWorcesterâ correctly and Iâm not one of them.</p>
<p>firefly-I can because Iâm from Mass itâs WOOSTAH! lol</p>
<p>shawbridge, thanks for the clarification. I totally agree with everything you said in Paragraph 2. </p>
<p>I do disagree a bit with your viewpoint in Paragraph 1, because I donât see âquietâ as equalling ânot interested in social interactionâ. Thatâs the sticking point; where we diverge in our thinking. I think weâre down to semantics, though, so never mind. </p>
<p>As downtoearth and fireflyscout so eloquently express above, thank goodness weâre not all the same people we were in high school! I also like missypieâs very wise post about fitting the profession to the personality.</p>
<p>Thanks for playing nice, shawbridge! You are very wise.</p>
<p>âI discuss this with my extended family, introvert vs extrovert. My H says I am antisocial. Actually I am not interested in superficial conversation. Donât need Heavy deep and real, but I also donât like to talk about nothing. This proves a challange for me. Being on the reserved side lends people to thinking I am snobby and I am far fromthat. I really donât know how to talk about nothing. the fact that I drink rarely doesnât help. try being sober when everyone else is drinking. Once I know you I am actuall considered pretty funny and nice, I like to look before I leap. My D2 is like that as well. takes her longer to warm up. Adjustments take longer for her and finding her comfort zone. Looking back on preschool, D1 was like"donât let the door hit you in the âŠâ on the way out" My D2 cried for the first two months. Eventually she adjusts and feels stronger for it. I wish I was more outgoing, i do well in my job, but find alot of chatter exhausting after that. " âDowntoearth</p>
<p>Downtoearth: You and I are similar. My wife is the extrovert. I get bored to tears within seconds of people bringing up meaningless topics. Unlike you, I do like heavy, deep and real. I prefer it. I relish it. Unfortunately, in social situations most people prefer light topics. I suspect the primary reason is because most people are not well informed when it coms to âheavy, deep and real.â I try to avoid peoople who want to discuss mundane stuff like the kind of fertilizer they use on their lawns.</p>
<p>I donât mind HDR, itâs just not required,The subject needs to be interesting. you canât have a heart to heart with everyone. Most people donât feel comfortable with that. Not their comfort zone. I respect that. People also do not like conflict so alot of discussion based debate is out. Quite honestly I donât feel as informed as many people on this forum. but I love to learn.</p>
<p>I like HDR. I love thinking. I love working out ideas with people.</p>
<p>I have learned to make smaller talk, but I typically lose patience with it. I think Iâm lucky living where I live. If someone were to talk to me about lawn fertilizer, Iâd probably leave mid-sentence. </p>
<p>However, when I was just out of college, I was living in New York and my girlfriend from Princeton had broken up with me. I went to a party at the Princeton Club of NY. At the party, one guy began a conversation by saying, âthe bond market has been terrible lately.â I decided to find my way to the bar. </p>
<p>Later, this very nice aristocratic guy took pity on me and invited me to a private party at a restaurant. I went. It was boy-girl-boy-girl seating. The young women were not from Princeton (there werenât too many females in my class at Princeton) and were selected by Iâm not sure what criteria but based upon their behavior, I suspect good families and good looks. The pompous guy two seats from me began talking about the relative merits of custom-made and semi-custom made shirts. The young woman across from me batted her eyes and managed to keep the conversation going (I think someone had told her that the way to a manâs heart was to feign interest in whatever he was talking about). She managed to cause this to go on for at least a half an hour. I was stuck sitting at the table in the private room at the restaurant so walking out was not an option. I was hoping someone would put me out of my misery or would shoot her so she would stop encouraging the bore to keep going or would shoot the bore. Talk about small talk. </p>
<p>Now, I actually do know something about the fertilizer industry because when I was working on Wall Street, I looked carefully a couple of acquisitions of fertilizer companies. But, I know nothing about lawns.</p>
<p>My dilemma has always been that I really donât fit into alot of suberbia here. It has always been a challenge, but I have found some awesome friends who I can really share with and who have been with me through thick and thin. I have to be somewhat social for my familyâs sake and I am. I have learned to not be uncomfortable with simply nodding and smiling. I enjoy the music, watching the game, or whatever. I have only recently learned to accept this about myself. I donât think itâs wrong to avoid competition, to be honest. I tire of the BS. These things donât matter in life, and I donât want to spend an hour of my precious time doing it. My kids feel the same way but are much more comfortable with it. I am thrilled at the people they are. We like to be silly and have fun too. But I loved it a couple of years ago when we were discussing the conflict in Georgia at dinner.</p>
<p>I LOVE to talk about things I am interested in and can become passionate and opinionated.
I can also do the small talk if I have to but âŠboring.I am a natural researcher and love to read! D2 is what we call slow to warmâŠto new situations, new people,new ideas,etc. D1 is the life of the party who everyone gravitates to and will be successful due to intelligence,warmth and personality. Have no idea what D2 will end up doing as a career.D1 is definitely a business/marketing major. I think D2 should be an engineer or architect but she wonât consider it. Canât wait to see where life takes her! ;)</p>
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<p>S had to fill out a form for his schoolâs award night naming the award (AND the name of someone at the college who could confirm it - sheesh) the amount and for where. I had him put WPI not Worcester Polytechnic - either way theyâll all be scratching their heads</p>
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<p>OKâŠI know the thread had moved on, but I was out of town yesterday (ironically I was walking the busy streets of New York) and I have a hard time passing this comment by.
I will give your S the benefit of the doubt, but frankly this type of attitude and behavior from some (not all) of the âjocksâ in Dâs school is partly what makes it such a negative place. I have a hard time buying it as anything other than rude, self centered and arrogant. D is very social and extroverted, but there are still a few people (all guys) who somehow donât acknowledge her or her friends and donât seem to know their names even when they have had multiple classes together. Thankfully D has enough self confidence to realize that high school is the proverbial âsmall pondâ and that next year no one will care much about these people unless they change.</p>
<p>Finally, I am a member of a select groupâone that can pronounce Worcester correctly! (Father from Mass)</p>
<p>We must all be having very busy days today! Topping - canât stand to be on page 2!</p>
<p>ha-missypieâI know I hate when I have to look for all of you. S has been a bear to live withâway to much work left with 4 days of school. I am thinking we should do a âS tradeâ this summerâanyone one on?</p>
<p>shawbridge thanks for the insight. I really enjoyed reading your posts. S is one of those easy to know easy to talk to guys. Always has something to say. Wants to be a lawyer. Probably a good career for him. D is quite and has decided that she would love to work in a lab setting. Research type work. Again probably a good career for someone who really just doesnât want to talk to much. D does need to learn to speak up at times. Hopefully she will grow into it as some of the other posters have through the years. Thanks to all who responded. Great information and âconversationâ from all.</p>