Oh yes, but in terms of overall athletic budget I would expect hockey, and basketball to eat up a lot. There are more women’s sports than men’s in general at UVM. There are also more women than men at UVM so…
@eandesmom what is a “profile” school?
@fwtxmom CSS PROFILE is a financial aid form required by a lot of the private colleges in addition to FAFSA. It is much more intrustive and looks at finances quite differently so depending on your scenario, the EFC (expected family contribution ) could be more or less than at a FAFSA only schoool.
Our EFC is always going to be the max anyway so I don’t think it will matter what method colleges use to get there. H is self-employed and I am a public servant. His income is good but his business expenses are pretty stiff so I don’t see us affording what they say we should pay. Does anyone ever look at the EFC and say “Well that sounds right”?
I guess the colleges that use the CSS profile think you should consider borrowing against your home to pay for college? Is that the theory? Or it’s just a way to calculate EFC to make sure the EFC number is always as high as possible?
I put this on the main 2019 page but thought I’d add it here as well as I just did a post game analysis on S17’s year one costs.
For those that are crunching numbers based on NPC’s and if it’s your first rodeo I wanted to offer a bit of my 2017 and beyond thoughts. For those of you who don’t need to crunch the numbers skip ahead! lol. Our first 2 kids had one college to chose from, so the costs were what they were (#1 applied to one school and #2 got in to her ED). The next 2 however, called for shopping. Or “call” really in the case of #4 which is DS19
When I’ve compared costs prior to application and then after offers come in, I focus on apples to apples comparisons. For us that means comparing
[ul][]Tuition + Fees
[]Room + Board
[]Travel
[]Books
[]Personal Expenses
[]Expected (and then Actual) Scholarships
[]Expected (and then Actual) FA if any
[]Subsidized versus Unsubsidized student loan offers (but did not include those in my net totals, it just let me compare gaps and what each school thought of our EFC).
[]Net total Direct Costs (tuition, fees, room and board only)
[]Net total Costs[/ul]
Personally, I assigned the same number to the bottom 2, knowing my kid, versus what any NPC predicted.
From an offer standpoint this worked well for me. It let me clearly see who gave a deal on room and board between who had crazy prices. It let me see merit offers as a % of tuition but not be swayed since higher %'s just seemed (for my B+ kid) to be at higher base tuition schools. It also let me see if fees were higher in places based on major or college. Those can be a bit hidden and not show in NPC’s, which are averages.
However there are other costs, especially year one, that can catch you and I like to have a handle on those as well. Things you may want to look at.
[ul][]Orientation. Is it before school or a separate time of year (spring or summer)? That can to add travel costs quite a bit.
[]Enrollment fee.
[]Room deposit, if any, when due.
[]Dorm set up. This may cost more than you think and budgeting for it helps avoid surprises. Can you drive things to the room that the kid already has or are you buying most things new at their out of state college to avoid shipping costs?
[]Move in costs. Will you need a hotel, a rental car and flights for yourself or can you just drive the kid with everything in the back of the car? Meals for 2+ for a weekend?
[]Tuition insurance and dorm insurance
[]Break travel. Will the kid need flights home or $ for other “fun” travel with friends over breaks?
[]Parents weekend or other. Will you be traveling to visit, will it mean flights, hotel, food or rental car?
[]Summer Storage. Where will your kid keep their stuff all summer? Will you need to rent storage?
[]Clothing. Is the kid moving to a totally different climate and will need a significant amount of new items to be set up?[li]Off campus housing. Deposits on these can be due almost a year before move in. And you might have to pay for a years worth of rent versus 10 months of dorm. It may or may not be a “better” deal.[/ul][/li]Ok the last one is really a year 2 cost but you get the idea.
Sorry if this is stating the obvious but as our kids start to look at schools, and dream schools, and schools that might come in at the top of anyone’s budget…when stretching for me it was helpful to look at the entire picture as that second list was not an apples to apples comparison for us.
I also recommend that you factor in tuition and R&B increases over the 4 years. You can, of course, research the historical increases for your schools and some (not many) guarantee no increases) but for me a flat % across all schools was easier and again, apples to apples. I figured anything less on the increase side was gravy. In general scholarships are flat amounts and do not increase when tuition and R+B do so the net cost over all 4 years can and will change in most cases.
@fwtxmom Some PROFILE schools will look at your home equity and factor that in to your EFC. Some will not, each of those schools has their own unique calculation method, whereas FAFSA is one number sent to all schools.
I like @dfbdfb 's response (evil). It’s a horribly intrusive form and boy, I’d love to look at FAFSA only schools for S19 but that’s not how his list is shaping up. That then means attempting NPC waivers which is a headache I’d rather not have too.
What I found fascinating is that offers for our #3 kid “magically” all seemed to just come down to our EFC. That way the colleges can say they met full “need” as they determine it. Didn’t necessarily meet “our” need.
What really burns me is the credit for more than 1 in college at the same time. I think everyone should get credit for paying for college period, regardless of whether those kids overlap or not! Our EFC is almost cut in half when the kids overlap but when they do not…ouch. Not that it really matters as at a half EFC it’s still full pay most places. But the reality is we’ve been paying college tuition for one or more kid since 2011 and will be until 2021. 10 years of tuition for 4 kids. But only 5 of those will have included any kind of overlap or “break”.
Thanks @eandesmom , this is great! My D wants to go far from home, so my spring break project is to figure out these exact comparisons and use it to help find more options.
I found an inspirational thread:
@ninakatarina Believe me, I am looking for that kind of inspiration, and I am glad to see it. I can’t help but notice, though, that by the time our kids get in, that thread will be 10 years old. Every one keeps saying that it’s getting harder and harder as more and more kids apply. I know my high school stats would not even get me into state flagship today. Sigh.
@Acersaccharum there are posts from 2018ers on the last page of that page Nina linked so it’s not all 10 years old.
Aw, I love that thread! I didn’t realize some 17/18 results were on it and there are some NICE ones!
If folks haven’t seen it, this is the master results list that I maintained from the 2017 thread last year for this gpa bracket. the 2017 cohort did really well and I am confident our 2019 kids will too! Although looking at that thread above (the 3.7 and under) might encourage too many reach applications for some.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/20605533/#Comment_20605533
Ha! Yes! Made it to the end of the thread and hope is renewed! The 3.0-3.4 2017 results list is what has gotten me to where we are now.
That is an incredible amount of work, @eandesmom what a great resource!
The 2017 thread-just wow. A couple of those kids have similar stats to S19 so it truly gives me hope for admission/merit. THANK YOU!
Reading it raises a question, especially for you @eandesmom and @dfbdfb : what would be considered “good” ECs? S has participated heavily in theater at school, having ensemble and small featured roles in the musical every year, competing in district and state YMCA mock trial for the past two years, being on the robotics team and the One Act Play company this year (and they won state in OAP) and doing significant service work at church including being a subdeacon and teaching kindergarten Sunday school. He doesn’t have any leadership positions besides at church and has no sports.
The musical is like a sport though-it represents an average of 3-6 hours of practice every week from Oct-Dec and then 10-20 hours practice per week for Jan and half of February, then 80 hours during production week in February. It’s a huge commitment at his school. OAP was similar. Is this low, average or good for ECs? (I wish he had pulled a lead but the musical is so popular that competition is incredibly stiff. The male lead for the last three years has been accepted to NYU’s acting program.)
Also, I have heard people describing their essay as “10/10.” What does that mean?
@fwtxmom: I’d say that “good” ECs are what you list. Remember, though, that ECs are only really a big deal at hyperselective schools (and ignored for admissions most places, in fact)—what you’ve listed is strong pretty much anywhere. Also, a leadership role doesn’t have to be some sort of elected or appointed office within a group.
And “10/10” means that the essay writer has an inflated sense of their own ability is confident that they wrote a near-perfect essay.
@fwtxmom My S18 is similar to yours for ECs - has been in his HS’s theatre conservatory so most all EC’s are theatre related. Only others are community service and another local theatre group that performs anti bully awareness type productions at local schools. My son will graduate with a 3.3 UW/3.5W, 9 AP’s,1410 SAT. He has been accepted to BU (CGS program), UConn, Drexel, Penn State, Seton Hall, St John’s. I’ve been on these boards since 2008 to get info for a son interested in a BFA theatre program (he ended up at Hartt). Not a big poster but can’t express how much help I’ve found here for my kids (and us!)
@fwtxmom I take a slightly different perspective on EC’s. I do think it bears looking at schools CDS to see if they care, or not about EC’s. It is a surprising range.
To me, good EC’s are one that show commitment, consistency and passion and tell me something about a kids character. EC’s that look like a kid tried to check every box they “thought” they should gives me no feel for their character.
My S17 had similar EC’s. 4 years of theater tech in a variety of roles, with increasing responsibility. 4 years of jazz, classical, marching and pep band and progression to the more selective bands. 2 jobs, one of which evolved out of theater tech volunteer hours into a paying position with the school. Super lean on sports but enough to get the PE waiver. Most notably though I think for him were his involvement in school clubs and volunteer hours that went with it on the social justice/environmental side and political discussion side and a (US urban farming) mission trip that lined up. Those lined up with his planned major and his essays and really gave you a snapshot of a kid who was pretty clear on who he was and what he wanted. I do think it made a difference in his results. Maybe not in admission, but in merit. But maybe in both. And for the B+/A- kid, every little bit helps. My S had a UW 3.47 and a Superscored ACT of 25 so he needed anything that made him look a bit more interesting, passionate and pointy. And I think his EC’s did.
At his final choice he only squeaked into the middle 50 on ACT thanks to superscoring and was on the low side of middle 50 on gpa. Yet he was awarded the low end of their top merit offer. (2 tiers). The low end of the top tier, versus the top end of the 2nd tier made all the difference in his ability to enroll. I do believe that the EC’s mattered.
I don’t think S19 has quite the same advantage. For his current list of 10, 4 rank EC’s as important, 5 as Considered and 1 as not Considered.
I take exactly the same perspective on the 10/10 essay though! And for the record S17’s essay was at best, in the middle 50. LOL! But, it lined up with the EC’s and many other things and I think that helped.
I completely agree that leadership can be shown in many different ways.
It sounds like your S has plenty to show on his applications, it really is all how you frame and spin it.
@trueofheart congratulations to your son, those are some very nice results!
Thanks all. I don’t anticipate that S will major in theater like your son @trueofheart although he wants to continue involvement in college, maybe even a minor. Right now he is leaning toward computer science as a major, although that could change. His grades are so blah, 3.2 UW (rising over time however) but he scored a 1540 SAT (780M/760V) which should really help. I thought like you @eandesmom that his ECs might help make him more distinctive and interesting. He has not done any “box-checking” but has only spent his time on what he really loves to do.
I am hoping that he will be able to score some merit at small LACs and put some of those in our range. When I read the 2017 thread, I saw other similar stats kids have done it. We are visiting Allegheny, Wooster and Earlham next week so it’s off to the races. He will visit with an admissions person during the visits. Any insight about what those conversations are usually like?
Allegheny showed my S17 a lot of love and was his best out of state offer. It was also one of the best programs for his major. Great tour host, great food (best food on any campus we toured!) but just wasn’t the right fit for my guy and we were both a bit bummed as we both really wanted to like it. S was not overwhelmed with their theater or music offerings, it was more sporty than artsy. They did however give him a music scholarship with zero strings attached.
Smart, nice kid sporty but just not his tribe. He sat in on a class, had an interview with a student, met with admissions and then had a separate faculty meeting. We did as much as possible as he was already admitted at that point so we were really comparing the programs as much as anything.
My S19 has similar stats 3.3 UW (3.6W estimated, we don’t weight) with a dramatic nosedive fall semester but so far is rebounding but it’s going to be hard to really bring it up. 33 ACT so…lopsided but the test score definitely helps. Also computer science, possibly music minor or who knows. He also has the 4 years of all possible music offered plus more sports, scouts, camp counselor type stuff but isn’t quite as pointy as his brother, more traditional so I worry he won’t stand out at all for the schools on his list. But we will see. Strong upward trend counts for a lot, it really helped S17. Rigor does too so that will hopefully help S19. Problem is, he has far more reaches on his list than his brother did. He also has more safeties though.