FWIW, I am a faculty member and premed advisor. We polled the med schools in our state. While some said P/F would be OK for prerequisite classes (given COVID), others strongly recommend or prefer that students do not select P/F as an option, if grades are an option.
@midwestmom9
So how will C/NC be perceived in admissions when kids have no choice? Bowdoin assures is it will not be a problem. Harvard says the same.
@Homerdog - never said it was a cop-out for faculty. Itâs potentially an attempt by administrators to even not the playing field, but outcomes. Whoâs going to complain about the need to accommodate those in âdifficult situations?â While the rationale is rooted in genuine adversity for some, schools seem to be using it as an excuse to follow the path of least resistance for all, rather than doing their job.
Since you mentioned Harvard, letâs take a look: they kicked out everyone - including the vulnerable or internationals not able to return to their home countries - with minimal notice. They easily could have provided housing for these relatively small numbers, as the vast majority of the student body did, indeed, have someplace to go. So that was a huge interruption to the learning process and a major stressor to all, not just the ones with difficult situations (we have extended family who were impacted by the abrupt closure). So yeah, their self-imposed âeverythingâs changedâ declaration was accurate. No wonder they went P/F! Had Harvard cared a bit more about âacademic continuityâ they could have gone a different route. What they did might not harm Harvardâs students per se, but but could harm those at less prestigious schools that opted to follow Harvardâs lead.
Although personally sympathetic to a P/F option (rather than an across-the-board policy), I agree that it can look a bit peculiar when employers and grad schools are comparing candidates from the same school, and it can easily - and improperly - signal poor academic performance. So in the end thatâs not the best idea either.
What is the best idea? Well, this is a shocker, but itâs keeping the current system and supporting the students in a way that still maximizes their learning opportunities! My kidsâ schools were on the quarter system so it was a lot easier for them, but this is exactly what they seem to be doing. They didnât feel that a switch over to remote learning should usher in an entirely new grading scale if the content hasnât changed. The idea that kids canât deal with Zoom or pre-recorded lectures (that you can back up and watch or rewatch so as to absorb the content more successfully) is highly amusing in todayâs highly technical world. Changing as little as possible and continuing the high expectations is not only appropriate, itâs a great Life lesson. How many of our clients or bosses are willing to pay us for âP/Fâ job performance? And while remote learning might have some disadvantages, it also opens to the door to opportunities that typically donât exist when things are ânormal.â For instance, my youngest, a black belt in martial arts, is being coached by national champions zoomed in by her instructor. Rather than resort to âP/Fâ training, heâs using this opportunity to switch it up in a new and different way that will have definitely benefits.
IMO, itâs a mistake to presuppose just who is truly âdisadvantagedâ here - my son thinks that, all else, equal, remote learning gives you a lot of extra time for self-study. My D had to care for a sick family member the past two weeks (mild Covid-19) and still managed to get her schoolwork done and get Aâs because she wasnât running around on her usual schedule. While we are working to âflatten that curveâ letâs make sure we donât also flatten every imagined obstacle - or unexpected opportunity to shine - that presents itself to our young adult children.
Some students might even prefer the relative solitude and commensurate opportunity for reflection and find that they are able to produce higher quality work as a result. Are these students now receiving an âunfair advantage?â Nope - because, as it turns out, they must have been âdisadvantagedâ earlier when things were more ânormalâ (read: busy, noisy, and distracting).
In short, itâs pointless to start tallying up who might have more jimmies on his/her cupcake this spring. Thatâs not even the role of the university. Itâs an institution of higher learning, not the social welfare planner. When individual situations arise (as they would even in regular times), they are best handled individually rather than with sweeping policies that treat everyone the same. The former takes much more effort and care than the latter, of course.
Circling back to your original comment that some of these same institutions were suggesting any letter grades this spring werenât authentic, thatâs simply not the case. Furthermore, Iâm pretty confident that schools opting to keep the status quo are doing so in the best interests of their students. And - just a thought - they might even understand pretty well what employers and grad schools actually do want to see on the transcript at the end of the day.
I talked to my kids about this topic last night again and they both decided they will probably just opt for the actual letter grade in all subjects. They say they are doing well in all subjects so why bother with P/F. I guess they both have all Aâs and maybe a B or B+ in some random elective class, so itâs not going to affect their GPA significantly anyways. They still have a few weeks to bring those grades up too.
The kids say they have plenty of time to study and do the required work and donât seem stressed or upset about the quality and content of their online learning. I guess itâs working OK for them, no technical issues either.
@JBStillFlying I shouldnât have used Harvard as an example but Iâm always using Bowdoin so I thought Iâd branch out. I didnât know Harvard âkicked outâ its internationals and donât really have time to investigate that. Bowdoin decidedly did not kick out its international students and worked with each of them to figure out the best strategy for them. I think it was a little rocky at the beginning but now most of them are on campus and moved apart from each other to follow social distancing and keep them apart in case someone gets sick.
As for professors moving to online and making a good transition and giving grades, S19 thinks his online courses are pretty good. Three of the four are always virtual and one is virtual half of the time. Small homework groups have been set up for virtual meetings and office hours are virtual and mandatory in groups of three students and the prof each week. I think Bowdoin turned on a dime really well but it still does not work for theater, labs, etc. And, at these LACs, absolutely nothing can replace what happens in the classroom or all of the learning and relationship growing that happens outside of the classroom. Thatâs what kids who go to these schools want and thatâs why they chose a small school.
Would giving grades be a motivator? Is going C/NC affecting work ethic? Not around here.S19 is working like crazy because (1) he and most of his classmates do school like this even when no one is watching - they work for themselves and not always for a grade and (2) those professors are still in touch a LOT and expect kids to participate in discussions - it would be highly embarrassing to not have done the reading or the homework. S19 says that, even for kids less motivated, thereâs no way to do less work (at least in his four classes) because youâre still facing a teacher and classmates for classtime.
I donât know. Iâm seriously not worried about the N/NC. If S19 was pre med, I might look into it more.
I donât know what happened at Harvard, but it seems possible that Massachusettsâ state policies may have made it impossible for them to keep students on campus. That is what happened in Ohio. Initially, Denison said that international students and others who would have difficulty returning home could stay, but that did not work once Ohio issued its lockdown rules - the dorms had to be emptied. While it hasnât been necessary, one idea was they they could be used to house patients or healthcare workers. Where students really could not return home or live with a relative or friend, the school offered to find housing with faculty, staff or other local residents. Our S19 flew back to Asia two weeks ago and is participating in the online classes - yesterday, he had a class at 4:30 a.m. and tonight he has a meeting with his track coach at 2 a.m! Heâs learning how to deal and kind of enjoying it, I think. We are not on lockdown yet, so he has still been visiting one gym that is following very strict disinfection protocols, but it seems itâs just a matter of a day or two now, so I can foresee weâre going to have to acquire some barbells. Denison has announced that students will have the option of taking any or all courses C/NC. They donât need to decide until the end of May, however. I am guessing S19 will stick with the regular grades.
@homerdog I donât have an answer to how those med schools will perceive C/NC when no choice was given. We didnât ask that question because our school is giving students a choice. I might guess if an applicant has a strong MCAT score and very high grades in all other science classes, then one semester of C/NC (from a school when no choice was given) wouldnât disadvantage students for admission. However, for students with less sterling records, a semester without grades could end up being a disadvantage. To be clear, I am speculating based on how I have seen med schools in our state operate in the past, and the answers they have provided to date. I really hope that no students are disadvantaged by circumstances out of their control this semester. But just because we would hope for understanding does not mean that all grad/professional programs will be equally so.
@JBStillFlying I hope that you realize that things like âthis highly technical worldâ is not true for kids whose families cannot afford high speed internet. Also, a dorm room with one other person, and a quiet place in the library provides a lot more ârelative solitudeâ for a kid who is sharing a two bedroom house with five other people.
For these kids, being able to run Zoom is very difficult, if not impossible, while a place where they can sit and listen to a lecture or participate in a class discussion does not exist. This is without dealing with food insecurity (as people lose jobs while having to feed more family members). At least is many places, the families do not have to worry about being evicted or losing power or gas.
For these kids, learning from home isnât an inconvenience, it is a fairly heavy burden, and to expect these kids to continue to produce the same level of work that they were required to produce in college, or often, producing any work at all, is unrealistic, and highly unfair.
These are not a handful of kids, but about 5%-10% of the students attending prestigious colleges. So, if we take Harvard (since that was the example that you also used), that is 300-600 students, not 10 or 15.
So the should be a general policy which takes these things into consideration, rather than a policy which does not, and then having a few hundred exceptions, which may have negative impacts on the careers of these kids.
My daughter runs her zoom classes in our unfinished basement with a folding chair and a table we grabbed out of the trash. We have a small house and three people who are on zoom/in phone meetings during the day, and thatâs the only place she can get space, privacy, and quiet. Some kids canât find that. Sheâs also lucky that her scholarship included a computer, otherwise sheâd be doing the classes and the homework on her phone like my high schooler does.
@midwestmom9 I donât have a list of schools that are exclusively doing C/NC but the ones Iâve read about are all top 10 universities or LACs so maybe they feel the kids wonât have a disadvantage in grad school or med school acceptances because they have a long history of successful placement.
â@JBStillFlying I hope that you realize that things like âthis highly technical worldâ is not true for kids whose families cannot afford high speed internet. Also, a dorm room with one other person, and a quiet place in the library provides a lot more ârelative solitudeâ for a kid who is sharing a two bedroom house with five other people.â
- Undoubtedly. However, schools should be providing the financial resources for these families to upgrade to high-speed internet if the family can't afford that and it's required. Are you saying that's not happening? Our kids' schools did a technology assessment in order to make sure everyone knew what was required and had the resources in place; they were supposed to contact the school if they needed funds for any system upgrades. Those would have been students already on significant need-based aid in the first place, some of which would have been rebated back to the school after the housing credit was processed. So it's not like schools didn't have the funds available.
The lack of space is a true issue; as we are a family of seven, I can appreciate what lack of privacy means to a person who needs the dedicated uninterrupted study time! IMO thatâs one of the primary drawbacks. However, my understanding - and Iâm the least knowledgable here so please correct - is that Zoom and other platforms are accessible via IOS as well. I think you had mentioned upthread that your own students were using their phones with little difficulty? So as long as you can find a quiet space somewhere (even if outside under a tree, the way we used to do some of our classes when I was in college), that might work. (EDIT to add: with social distancing and lockdown measures in place across the board, âquiet spotsâ outside the residence should be a tad easier to find these days). Now, itâs very possible that families donât have broad band and are still carrying around flip phones, but at that point you are very likely talking about a small number of college kids. Again, an individual issue not requiring a fix with a broad brush.
âThis is without dealing with food insecurity (as people lose jobs while having to feed more family members). At least is many places, the families do not have to worry about being evicted or losing power or gas.â
- Unfortunately, there will be stressors and family crises even had the student been allowed to stay on campus. It's impossible to remove every obstacle, especially when an economic crash occurs. However, since families are remanded a portion of the housing/dining plan fee for the semester, can't they use that to purchase food for the college student? That just seems like common sense.
âFor these kids, learning from home isnât an inconvenience, it is a fairly heavy burden, and to expect these kids to continue to produce the same level of work that they were required to produce in college, or often, producing any work at all, is unrealistic, and highly unfair.â
- Which is why kicking everyone off campus without regard for their outside options or living situation makes no sense. Some internationals, for instance, couldn't even return to their home countries due to the virus.
@tkoparent, we donât have kids at Denison but from what I read, they dismissed everyone six days before Mike DeWineâs lock-down order with its myriad âcommon senseâ exclusions. Everything Iâve read on the ability to convert dorms to hospital beds says they arenât even third choice, despite rumors and hints from NYU that this was a contingency plan. Among other things, they canât easily be set up for intensive care, hallways are too narrow to roll in large equipment, and families would get the willies about their kids being in the dorm next door (should students return while covid patients were being treated on campus).
âSo the should be a general policy which takes these things into consideration, rather than a policy which does not, and then having a few hundred exceptions, which may have negative impacts on the careers of these kids.â
- No, the school doesn't need a general policy that differs from the general policies it has in place anyway - tweaked, perhaps, to apply to the new environment. The school just needs to do its job. That requires the same effort and level of individual attention that one would expect to see on campus. Level the playing field, not the outcomes.
There will be students, such as yours @MWolf, who are working doubly-hard this session. How âhighly unfairâ (to use your words) if they could not receive recognition for their extra efforts with a letter grade. Why assume that their careers wouldnât be negatively impacted by mandatory P/F?
âI think Bowdoin turned on a dime really well but it still does not work for theater, labs, etc. And, at these LACs, absolutely nothing can replace what happens in the classroom or all of the learning and relationship growing that happens outside of the classroom. Thatâs what kids who go to these schools want and thatâs why they chose a small school.â
- Agree. Zoom can't begin to substitute for the organic give and take of a discussion-style seminar or the ability to chat with the prof or with other like-minded students.
âWould giving grades be a motivator? Is going C/NC affecting work ethic? Not around here.S19 is working like crazy because (1) he and most of his classmates do school like this even when no one is watching - they work for themselves and not always for a grade and (2) those professors are still in touch a LOT and expect kids to participate in discussions - it would be highly embarrassing to not have done the reading or the homework. S19 says that, even for kids less motivated, thereâs no way to do less work (at least in his four classes) because youâre still facing a teacher and classmates for classtime.â
- THIS probably best explains why Bowdoin isn't too worried about switching to C/NC this spring. Students who love learning and faculty who are on the ball. My son - and his profs - are similar. The profs seemed especially able to adapt the curriculum and syllabus so he got lucky. He loves his reading list this quarter. However, he also knows that 1) you get out what you put in; 2) time and energy are scarce resources; and 3) human nature has its weak moments. Letter grades optimize your learning by helping you figure out how to spend your time and effort, and they keep you on your toes. And that's why he'd be disappointed if forced to go P/F.
This article from the U Chicago paper pretty much sums up why a university would choose Pass/Fail for all. https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2020/3/30/ahead-likely-amendment-pass-fail-grading-policy-uc/
This semesterâs grades, whether in high school or college, will likely be considered unreliable, inflated, or not existent, so wonât be used as a distinguishing factor among students by universities and employers. Expect greater reliance on prior grades and pre-existing standardized test scores for those who have them.
@JBStillFlying Itâs difficult to read your long posts when you donât use gray boxes when quoting other posts. Now that we have the quote button (rather than doing it the old fashioned HTML way) itâs even easier.
My understanding was that was in a response to part of a statement by Governor Cuomo. While you may be right on the concerns about converting dorms to hospital overflow, NYU is from next week making their dorms available to front line medical workers, it seems at least two residence halls are slated for this in the next couple of weeks.
In Caltech you can choose to have P/F for any class this quarter. DS is considering this for his humanities class, but he was happy they didnât choose across-the-board P/F because in the coming years his classes will be harder, and he wanted to boost his GPA now. They did allow international and other students with difficult family situation to stay on campus, all moved into one dorm which is presumably being thoroughly cleaned all the time.
NYU is giving students the choice to grade or P/F, and they only have to decide by May 12, just before finals, by which time they should have a good idea of what their grades will look like. D19 is leaning towards P/F, I donât have a strong opinion on it (well, Iâd like her to grade but I think of it looks like sheâll get mostly As again she might anyway). She has neither med nor law school on her horizon so at this point I donât think itâs critical. Is there another angle I might be missing? (The college systems I went to school in never had p/f options so I donât know all the angles.)
- Thanks! Didnât even notice the quote button!
-Ah, ok. Dorming medical workers makes a lot more sense.
-Maybe in case they end up with med or law school on the horizon at some point in the future? Why limit options if you are likely to get Aâs or near Aâs?
There will doubtless be students who can truly benefit from doing P/F. As for the remainder, they will include those deciding to go P/F based on other to-be-expected criteria such as how to maximize cum. GPA or disguise sub-optimal academic performance from prior to the outbreak. JMO but most letter grades look better than a P. Some employers - not just grad schools - might care about your letter grades, and no one truly has any idea how the events of this spring will be remembered a few years down the road - or even next year. Best to reserve P/F for when you truly need it. Opportunism may well backfire.
There are a number of school districts where the needs are great enough and the funding level is low enough that no, itâs not whether they should or not, itâs whether they canâand they simply canât.
I mean, even in my own decently-funded district theyâve run out of money to distribute internet hotspots and chromebooks, with need still out there (and thatâs even giving out only one of each per household, no matter how many students in a family). I canât imagine what things are like in, say, the East St Louis (Illinois) School District.
ETA: And at the college level? The funding-need disparity is often worse. The colleges that educate the most poor students are generally the most financially precarious.