Parents of the HS Class of 2023 (Part 1)

Parents Forum Class of 20xx Community
8660

I would suggest that the whole idea of “the next level up” is kind of a misplaced one. We have this weird cultural imperative to stratify the educational system, but it doesn’t work that way—and it particularly doesn’t work at the level of entire institutions, and even if it works at a more granular level (e.g., individual programs) it’s not going to be something that can be reliably scaled the same way across all potential students.

(Recognizing that I’m taking phrasing you used, @tsbna44, and running with it using a reading you clearly hadn’t intended given the rest of your post’s content. But the phrasing gave me a springboard for a further observation.)

4 Likes
8661

Next level up is misplaced on society, but not those who come on the CC :slight_smile:

Otherwise - why does someone have to be at UVA instead of WV or Michigan instead of MN or FL/GA instead of Alabama or Ole Miss, etc.?

But that’s why I made the comment - most aren’t the .001% of potential students or parents who are on the CC.

2 Likes
8662

Because each school offers different opportunities that may be very significant to the kid and/or their family?

4 Likes
8663

I disagree - in the sense that I was addressing the comment of overreach.

The kid who is desperate to get into a UVA/UNC could likely have a similar experience at a WV or SC or UMD but “it’s beneath them” - hence the overreach.

There’s likely little you can do at a Michigan that you can’t at a MN or Ohio State…bu they’re not Michigan.

And same with Bama vs. a Florida/Georgia.

I’m talking in this case about admissions selectivity/perception of schools…vs others that aren’t perceived as high.

And many schools have things you don’t even know about. My daughter is at Charleston - because the entire time during our visit - she was just glowing. The only pause she had was when they showed the student profile. As it turns out, their Mroz Institute is really awesome for International Studies - she’s met multiple ambassadors and other diplomats - but had no idea it even existed. Others given her acceptances might have gone to UF, UGA or W&L vs. C of C - that’s what I was getting at…not at offerings…just because they don’t admit most students and they don’t have a 21-27 ACT range.

I honestly don’t think “most” kids are looking at opportunities…if they are looking for the “next level up”, it’s my hypothesis that 95% of the time it’s for the “higher ranked school.”

I’m guessing that very few kids - I’m talking society - not on the CC - are even looking to see - ok, they have Philosophy - what kind of philosophy or history can I study. They just know they have an interest in philosophy or geography or whatever the subject…and that’s it.

But I digress…anyway, that’s my hypothesis.

4 Likes
8664

There are some qualitative differences between schools though. No one would argue, for instance, that Cal State Los Angeles delivers the same quality of education as UCLA. It doesn’t. The graduation rate, rigor and quality of class offering and faculty vary greatly. So while I don’t think students should chase prestige, no one wants to pay for a low quality product if there is a better quality product available.

6 Likes
8665

I would have to investigate further to be certain, of course, but I would my initial reaction would be that they almost certainly do deliver the same quality of education (allowing for variances among individual programs, of course, including that they each have offerings that the other doesn’t).

The measures you offer as evidence for your claim can be explained by input variables, not by differences in educational quality.

2 Likes
8666

Is it the school or the students though? Yes, there are variations in schools, facilities, faculties and so on… but to what degree, and are outcome differences because of the school itself or because of the students who attend those schools?

A few years back, Time magazine had an article called something like “Who Needs Harvard”, and it followed several students who turned down Ivy leagues for less prestigious universities. It also cited some studies that supported the overall theme of the article… that students who could have gone to a more elite university but chose not to, had similar results as those who did go to the elite university.

So, the biggest factor in a students outcome post graduation is the student themselves, and not the institution they went to.

9 Likes
8667

Someone noted yesterday on another thread about UCB CS - that grads said they skated through - and UCB is considered a strong school.

It’s just an anecdote - but I can see it being the case.

Both my kids have lots of rigor at their schools - neither highly rated.

I do think the input of higher performing kids from high school makes a ton of difference.

2 Likes
8668

Maybe it was an Atlantic article… I found this:

1 Like
8669

I’ve been asking this question often during this process. What makes a program or school better or superior, or whatever word one might use? Answers have been all over the map.

For some majors the exact professors matter. But overall what is a lower quality or higher quality school? That “lower quality product” is made up of professors, most of whom I suspect care about educating students. Many are just as good at teaching.

I think the question is what your student wants to gain, and what’s a good learning environment for them. Who will be their peers and their professors? Where can they graduate without debt and be able to start the career they studied for? Where will they learn the way they personally learn best? That’s the superior school for them.

It’s hard to give up on the idea that some schools are inherently better, and I’m learning that in some ways better is not really a thing.

7 Likes
8670

Each school has its own strengths and programs, though. Depending on the kid, maybe they want something that is only available at Michigan… or only available at UMN… or only available at OSU. Or maybe all of the schools have what this kid wants.

6 Likes
8671

It’s worth noting that colleges perceived as lower quality are—not universally, but definitely often—precisely the colleges where teaching is more highly valued institutionally.

Emphasis added, because exactly yes.

6 Likes
8672

I will say that I think there is a benefit to being surrounded by students that will push you and give you goals to meet. As well, as for certain classes to have students who can challenge you, present new ideas and so on.

Those students are at almost every university… but they may be more prevalent at “top” universities, so it might be easier to fall into a group that you click with and who challenges you.

So there can be a value proposition at those elite institutions.

Attending a top university is neither necessary nor sufficient for career success. It can be helpful though.

15 Likes
8673

To determine or compare quality of one institution to another I would look at tangible data- faculty to student ratio, dollars spent per student, four year graduation rate, retention rate, rate of employment after graduation, etc… To stick with my comparison of UCLA and Cal State LA- 82% 4 year graduation rate, 48% 4 year graduation rate, 9 to 1 faculty ratio, 16 to 1 faculty ratio, etc… Not all schools are created equal.

7 Likes
8674

I’d compare it to square footage and ceiling heights of private homes of couples living without children. From some point on, does an even-larger house really add to its “living value” for its inhabitants?

No doubt, one will be more expensive and more prestigious than the other, but other than happiness derived from its “bragging value”, as far as quality of living, at some point the only true difference will be how many extra steps and stairs to the couch.

7 Likes
8675

You’re cherry-picking your stats, though.

Most glaringly, 4-year graduation rate is clearly tied to socioeconomic status of the students—a student who needs to work a paying job to survive is vanishingly unlikely to average 15 credits/semester. Surely you’re not saying that having more students in or near poverty means the university is worse?

And I would hope that we can agree that dollars spent per student is an abysmally poor measure of institutional effectiveness—for just one example, sports programs at the vast majority of colleges are money pits that provide no educational benefits to most (if any) students. (Insert recognition of social benefits here, of course.)

Retention rate (and, really, graduation rate) is acknowledged to be a very, very poor measure of educational effectiveness, because the way it is tracked excludes many retained (and graduated) students.

Rate of employment after graduation also has a sampling problem, as well as the fact that surveys don’t always get the same information from institution to institution—at best they can be used to compare trends over time for a single institution, not differences between colleges.

Similarly, student:faculty ratios aren’t calculated the same way between institutions, and even when they are, you run into frequent definitional issues (e.g., teaching assistants, 100% research faculty, and so on).

We try to quantify higher education, but the problem is that it’s an incredibly heterogeneous sector—the idea that you can come up with a set of quantitative or even qualitative metrics that are equally applicable and equally measurable across institutions falls apart every time anyone tries to do it seriously.

Basically, there are some students for whom UCLA would be better, and some for whom CSULA would be better—and, I would suggest, the vast majority who would be equally well served by either of them. But to try to say that one is inherently better than the other? No. Just no.

9 Likes
8676

just going to add that at my state U, the faculty I’ve met are phenomenal, dedicated, smart and from all over. The students . . . well that’s a little different story. slightly chaotic perhaps!

6 Likes
8677

I find it interesting that campus climate is excluded from this discussion. For certain groups, that absolutely impacts the quality of their education, including retention, persistence and graduation rates. It also impacts their experience with professors and classmates (as well as career services) in and outside of the classroom. A quality education is not to be had “anywhere” for some of us.

I don’t care what “educational quality” or merit Alabama, Ole Miss, Syracuse, or even Purdue offer. I wouldn’t send my AA S23 (Engineering) there. And it’s not just URMs that have to worry about campus climate. My friend’s white LGBTQ DD was just admitted to one of the Florida institutions. She’s extremely concerned about the environment given what’s going on down there with proposed legislation at the public institutions.

I think this discussion would benefit from a larger perspective. In typical CC fashion, there is a very narrow focus on particular types of students.

26 Likes
8678

Which is part of why it comes down to what’s best for the individual student, and a comparative ranking at the institutional level is doomed to failure.

5 Likes
8679

Love the school that loves you back. I really hope my son finds a good fit on his tours. I have been really impressed with communication from a few.

12 Likes