Is the average student at Bama stronger than the average student at Harvard because Bama has more NMF students, conditioned on demographics/hooks in each micro bucket? NMF is good, but I wouldn’t over interpret it.
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Our son is going to do the head to head matchups today, which I predict will be an effective method for him. Goal is to get to 4 or fewer. I think he might even get to 2, we’ll see. Just in time to call it “March Madness”.
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Keep us posted, I love hearing decision making done that way!
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{insert por que no los dos meme here}
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Ok, so I had to google your comment. 
If both reasons, then I’m interested to know that too. Like I said, it’s purely an academic exercise.
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Both. The academics are outstanding. The cost is outstanding.
I brought it up because of parents who feel like their kids will thrive with academic peers and the implication that they can only be found at elite institutions. There are academic peers in every major school and university and at larger university there are many more by sheer number of elite students. The majority of elite students do not end up at elite schools.
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I think the point here is that many state schools that are not “ranked” have pretty solid students that based on pure academic performance can play with the best of 'em.
FYI, over 20% of Bama students have >1400 SAT score. That makes >8000 students on campus with that distinction.
Here is an interesting anecdote from our visit on Capstone Scholars Day at Bama. The dean of the honors college said that they have taken a page from the athletics playbook when it comes to student recruitment. They will do what they can to recruit 4/5 star scholars. They know that these students are very successful at Bama and beyond, which in turn boosts their alumni network.
@mountainsoul I wonder why you wonder? Lol. Just look at the collective angst of parents on this thread that have stellar credentials but lose out to more “desirable” candidates at “top” schools. I suggest you spend some time on the UC vent page. And yes, for middle income and poor families, cost matters. That too should be quite obvious if you read through the many threads on the subject of costs.
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I’m curious about this. Were you prepared to let her to go to either school without any input of your own? What would you have done if she made a decision you thought was unwise? I’m having trouble imagining us supporting one particular school my kid has been accepted to, now that we know the other offers he’s gotten.
Unfortunately, my opinions about schools I think would be awesome for my kid are obvious, so I can’t do this. I’m an open book, and I’m afraid I have already swayed him. I wish I could go back in time and change that. But here we are! I’d like to salvage the opportunity for him to make his own choices when we have them all in hand.
Does anyone have advice?
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The average student in the Blount Scholars program at Alabama is as strong as average student at Harvard. The average University Fellows student at Alabama is as strong as the average Harvard student. Do you think that a NMF at Harvard is a better student than a NMF at any other school? Remember, Harvard has a range of students who may not “measure up” to your standard of who/what is acceptable as an academic peer to your child. If your child doesn’t get into a top 20 does that make them less acceptable as a peer to those who did get in?
I am not a proponent that Alabama (or any school) is the right fit or best fit for everyone. However, there is plenty of data that the average ‘Harvard’ student not is a unicorn and superior to top students everywhere across the country. They had the “it” that Harvard was looking for in that cycle. That does not mean that there are not 100 more equivalent students who have the exact same “it” that didn’t get accepted to attend. Those students all attend other schools and continue to be spectacular.
Top 50 schools are not the only place to find elite students.
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Maybe I’m confused. I think in terms of this particular discussion, it didn’t really matter why. The point was that they are there. The idea is that people who are worried that their awesome student won’t have awesome peers are wrong.
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Same boat. Following.
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My kid is carefully trying to assess her potential peers. But she’s just looking for a place where a decent number of students actually want to be there and actually like learning stuff.
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I am not sure why people are willing to accept that there could be skill and hard work differences, and desire to play for a stronger team in athletics, but such thoughts are anathema in academics.
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Lots of reasons why national merit scholars might have chosen bama! warmer weather, football, greek life, excellent facilities and perhaps being the top-dog might be other reasons than just the money or academics. ** there are full-pay OOS families at Bama because it is loved by many.
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I’m going to agree; neighbor around the corner who got into HYP as a headcount sport recruit wouldnt have had the grade point/act score for top bama scholarships. (know the family well; know test scores and etc).
of course there are brilliant people at harvard; and MIT for sure!!! but they are other places as well; kids whose families can not afford to pay 50-60-70-80 K a year with other kids in tow. It’s such a blessing that some schools do offer merit so kids dont have to start their lives with large amounts of debt.
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In our specific case: absolutely, yes.
My nightmare was to subconsciously railroad her towards the “right” decision, but then something completely unrelated didn’t work out perfectly over the next four years, and then we would have been to blame.
This is an (almost) adult choosing four years of life away from home, peers and family - they need to make that decision, so that they can own it. They will need to button down and muddle through - and it’s much more likely to work if they know it was their own doing!
Well - there’s “unwise” and there is “unwise”.
She had to decide between two genuinely excellent and prestigious options - so there really wasn’t any “unwise” decision to be made either way. We just knew that one had some objective advantages, while the other was more rooted from a “pre-teen infatuation”.
But even if she had narrowed her acceptances down to another 2nd choice, somewhat less prestigious, it would still have been left to be her decision.
Unless one is truly “unwise” (but - why even apply then), maybe the “greater wisdom” is for the parents to admit that your student will excel at whichever school they pick, and that for most professions, choice of school will not really impact career, specially beyond the first job.
First - there’s no rush. I would encourage the student and family to agree to let it all settle in a bit, and discourage “declaring” a decision too early. Maybe agree to get together in two weeks time for brainstorming, when all the pluses and minuses on the table will be gone over.
Let the student know that they’ll be the head of the table, and you’ll be there to understand their reasoning, while being available to gladly share your perspective and add some life experience, without being persuasive – but that ultimately, you will respect and support whatever they feel is the right path for them.
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The Alabama-Harvard comparisons are interesting to me because I don’t think it’s all about raw intelligence but also about students’ ambition and future plans, and what colleges are looking for amongst the high schoolers they select for full ride scholarships.
My twins graduated from college last summer after D took a full ride at a T100 college and S attended a T20. Both were in very strong peer groups, for example one of D’s freshman year roommates is now a Rhodes scholar while S was a Marshall scholarship finalist. But most of D’s cohort didn’t have expectations to change the world and get high paid positions in finance or consulting, they are happy with regular jobs, PhD positions etc in the Mountain West (and very grateful to have attended college for free). I think that reflects what her college was looking for: for example they actively sought kids who loved the outdoors.
In contrast S was amongst quite a few kids who were more ambitious and wanted to move to NY/DC/SF etc and get high paid jobs, attend prestigious grad/law schools etc (though it was still a minority of his classmates).
It wouldn’t surprise me if Alabama is trying to select a cohort of kids who they expect to change the world for their more selective scholarships, just as UVA or Duke is. But I don’t think that’s necessarily true of everyone who gets a full tuition award at schools like Alabama or Arizona, or the full ride cohorts at some other schools.
I do think it’s important to consider what your kid actually wants out of life. Is it important for them (not just you the parent) to be super successful and work very hard to have a prestigious job? Or will they be happy to have no college debt, a decent job and be able to buy a house and raise a family without their name ever being in the paper? If the former, then the peer group and expectations at their college will be important. You’ll get it at Harvard, and apparently in the selective Alabama scholarships, but not everywhere. But if the latter then taking the full ride is a no brainer.
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For our son, I think he needed his dad to express that the more expensive choice might be ok, or preferable. Our son is choosing between UC Davis and Cal Poly SLO right now, unless Berkeley somehow comes through today. SLO has a scholarship he’d receive, plus it’s already cheaper. We’re looking at a difference of 12k a year. Both schools are in budget. Our son was a bit fixated on the 50k. I could see him relax and stop worrying when his dad said the price difference wasn’t the most important factor. If our son feels the program and research potential would be better at the more expensive school, then he should freely choose it. He really can’t go wrong with either school.
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I absolutely agree that there are differences in skill and motivation. Honestly, if either of my kids had a real shot an Ivy, we would find a way to pay for it.
I disagree that only selective schools can provide a peer group of intellectual, hardworking, ambitious students. I’m also uncomfortable with the notion of insulating students so they are almost exclusively surrounded by people they see as their “peer group” in terms of academic caliber.
If Harvard accepts 5% of 43,000 applications, and we assume a large percentage of those students are academically motivated and accomplished, that’s a whole lot of students who are going elsewhere. That doesn’t even factor in the students who don’t bother to apply for whatever reason.
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Awesome! My daughter’s final 4 is Seattle U, Gonzaga, Willamette and Univ of Portland. Wouldn’t be much of a final 4 if it were the men’s basketball teams playing!
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