Digressing to the original post— if the parents are in debt up to their eyeballs (stealing that line from a tv commercial) not only would it be ill advised to go into deeper debt, but they may not qualify for loans , or might the first year but not in subsequent years, and the student would not be able to stay at that school. Follow the money when you don’t have it to spend. JMO.
Not wrong OP, it is prudent.
If you can contribute, say $5k a year, that is a fact. It’s not good or bad, just a fact. I would push it. I would have a very frank conversation with her about $:
This is how much we can pay per year out of pocket: $X
This is how much student can borrow: $5500.
We parents cannot take on more debt with our finances, so additional loans to the 5500 are not an option.
You can apply where you like in addition to the free rides, but can only go if the FA and/or merit brings the cost with X + 5500.
I went a college bc it was $300 a year after merit, so, free. I ended up with Hugh loans from law school, so not having undergrad debt was essential. Med school is no different!
@FrozenMaineMom I can share our experience. We have a very large family and one of our kids is only semi-independent (he is autistic and is very dependent on us). Our budget for our kids’s college attendance is about 1/3 of our expected familial contribution at even generous schools. Our kids pursue merit $$ and have had fabulous college experiences.
Our current college sr is at Bama. He is part of RRS (definitely look into RRS if your dd applies to Bama. It is a specialized research honors program and provides students the skills to excel in research) Bama has offered him excellent opportunities. He started participating in UG research his freshman yr. His scholarship covered grad courses and large cr hr loads (some scholarships won’t pay beyond 15-16 cr hrs). Bama is very open to advanced students taking grad courses and even have a program for earning their masters and UG simultaneously.
That ds has been accepted into some of the top grad programs in the country (and unless his visit this weekend blows him away, I am pretty sure he will be accepting the offer from a top 5 program.) One of his close friends at Bama (a very accomplished young woman who is also in RRS) has been accepted into 5 MD/PhD programs including Harvard’s. So, don’t be afraid that attending lower ranked schools limits their future. That is not our experience at all.
Our current college freshman is a freshman at USCaro. She loves USC. Their special honors program provides all sorts of perks and career development opportunities. We visited numerous large scholarship schools and USC always stayed at the top of her list. (Her list was very different from her brother’s. Schools like Bama didn’t offer high enough level courses for her major objectives. So, do make sure that you make sure that course offerings match your student’s abilities and that course sequences are offered frequently enough to allow your student to make appropriate progression.)
Their older brother is a chemE who also attended college on scholarship. He has an excellent career.
Kids who are internally motivated can excel and thrive on lower ranked campuses. Our kids have sought out opportunities for research,have taken on large projects, have had wonderful professor mentors, etc. They graduate with CVs/resumes that are filled with their academic pursuits as UGs and have not been limited by the UG institutions even though the schools have not been highly ranked. What has mattered is what they have accomplished.
Good luck to your dd. (And make sure she is aware of just how much time college apps take, especially when applying to competitive scholarships. Essays and interview weekends will be huge part of her sr yr.)
I don’t think OP is asking to compare experience and outcome of attending higher ranking schools vs schools her DD can attend with regards to their financial situation. They can’t afford full pay and going into large debt doesn’t make sense for them and unfair to a student who might not realize it now but will have do deal with it many years after graduation. It is what it is. She was fortunate enough to earn free rides at some schools and hopefully she will make the best of it.
Spot-on!!!
Here is one example of a smart premed kid with a low GPA at Cornell and looking at alternative career pathway.
Wow, this an apt description of my premed son who was not able to apply to single medical school at the end of undergrad! Almost lost his full-tuition scholarship along the way, at a very expensive private university. The saving grace was that he completed undergrad with zero student loan debt.
I think for many (not all, exceptions) of the average excellent students (tip top stats and qualifications, no hooks) dead set on med school, the ride through a state U honors college (assume a tier 1 research U but no one’s definition elite school) makes a lot of sense. The financial savings are obvious. But even beyond that.
They will find hundreds of their academic peers in the honors college and the associated living learning programs. It’s a misconception they have to go to an elite school to find them.
Let them double major in chemistry and biology and they will find plenty of rigor and become well prepared to enter their state med school. They can still reach for a higher ranked program school if they excel in undergrad. They will be giving themselves a better shot at getting into med school than they would have coming out of an elite hyper competitive school with grade deflation and struggling to get above the bell curve.
DS accepted a competitive full ride with perks from a state school. It is replacing an automatic full ride he had at the same school for NMF. He also got into a guaranteed entrance to med school program there. Absolutely zero regrets or uncertainty over his choice. I am over the moon happy and proud of him. In our house, we wouldn’t trade it for the right to pay $250k plus for a brand name, just because I could. I don’t begrudge anyone who does. I enjoy coming on here and seeing kiddos and their parents celebrate getting into the dream school. But I can’t say it makes me envious either. The emotion is more relief than envy actually.
As for gaming the system, we don’t apologize for achievement and excellence in our house. We actively encourage it. I firmly believe DS was fortunate to receive his scholarship because U of L believes he will make the most of it and do all he can to be a blessing to the school while he is there and in his work beyond. He will be an ambassador for life out of appreciation for what they are doing for him.
OP, you are not rotten and you are not limiting your daughter. It is smart to look into getting as much aid as possible. The Honors colleges are state flagships are normally great and often offer an LAC- like experience. Not necessarily sub-par at all. I was given quite a bit of money for college because of NM and lots of special perks- it made a huge difference. It’s nice to be wanted. Looking at schools that are outside what she initially would have considered could lead her to totally unexpected new experiences. Another thing to think about is that it might be easier to get elected to PBK (which can really help in grad school apps and typically stays on a CV/resume for life) at schools that are actively recruiting students who are a bit more accomplished than others in their applicant pool. PBK would not be a huge consideration in choosing a college, but it could be there on the periphery. Others have turned down Ivies for state flagships: http://www.businessinsider.com/ronald-nelson-turned-down-every-ivy-league-school-for-university-of-alabama-2015-5. Good luck.
You are not crazy. There is a LOT of pressure on parents to borrow in order to send their kid to the best school possible. And, to top it off, borrowing is EASY. They will gladly lend you more money than you can handle. Beware.
One of the most helpful things I did was make a spreadsheet of the Cost of Attendance (COA). Add in everything. Estimated travel expenses. Health insurance. Add in 3-5% inflation for each year. Run the Net Price Calculators (NPC). Look at the four year cost. Not “x” per year. Let the numbers shock you.
Someone mentioned Fordham upthread. Our D was awarded their full tuition scholarship. At the time, this scholarship did not include fees. By the time we added in NYC priced room and board, plane tickets, fees, inflation…we were looking at a four year COA north of $90K, even with the scholarship.
By time acceptances were in, we had full tuition scholarships on the table, and a full ride on the table, in addition to some prestigious acceptances that were absolutely unaffordable without financial ruin.
Our D was not. happy. she was not going to be able to attend her top choice. The nail in the coffin for us was when I looked at what years 2-3-4 were going to cost with only one in college v. two in college. The NPC spit out shockingly high dollar amounts that snapped me back to reality. Without college savings or the ability to pay out of current cash flow, we would have to borrow. Not happening. It would be financial suicide.
On paper, our income is on the high side, but that income doesn’t reflect the years of lowered income — unemployment and underemployment — we went through after the crash in 2008. We have some serious catching up to do for the retirement years.
We sent D to an OOS public that awarded her a full ride. She was not happy at first and freshman year was not all rainbows and unicorns. The idea that all kids get to “choose” where they go to college is not reality. Sure, it would have been nice if she had safety schools on her list that she’d be happy to attend (Love Thy Safety, as CC says) but alas, that was not the case with this kid. She wanted what we could not afford.
Fast forward, and she is making a great life for herself at her school. This is in stark contrast to the saltiness freshman year, and requests to transfer out.
“Gaming the system is working in a high cash business and only declaring the bare minimum of what you need to avoid an audit.”
Very good point, there’s a cottage industry in the bay area of making the applicant look poorer than they actually are. And if you own a small business you can pretty much tell the IRS you’re losing money when you’re not, and get a lot of FA. And the adcoms at these selective colleges love this story, struggling family, maybe first gen student who everyone is depending on to take them out of the struggle.
And @FrozenMaineMom I wouldn’t rule out UMaine. That would be incredibly cost effective. The honors program there I believe has courses that can be taken with Bowdoin/Colby professors. Many many future med students go to there state uni to avoid debt and then on to med school.
In terms of cheating (as opposed to gaming*) the tax system (and its side effects on college financial aid), https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everyone-tries-to-dodge-the-tax-man-and-it-keeps-getting-easier/ describes what tax situations are easier and less easy to cheat on.
*Cheating is disobeying the rules. Gaming is taking advantage of loopholes in the rules.
Taking a full ride despite being able to pay is neither cheating nor gaming the system and the poster that suggested it was is flat wrong.
“Taking a full ride despite being able to pay is neither cheating nor gaming the system and the poster that suggested it was is flat wrong.”
Exactly. Would add that anyone that thinks every student deserves the same result just because they are breathing is wrong also.
Your children are adults. You aren’t sending them anywhere. They decide where to go. You decide if you want to gift them money. It’s pretty simple. I know too many people who make more money and are super happy in life who didn’t get a dime from their parents. I know three people who make over 200k a year with no college. It’s your kids life let them choose. If it costs lots way more than you want to contribute to then that’s your ADULT CHILD’S PROBLEM. Not yours. They can choose work, loans, or a cheaper school. That’s called life.
Fyi I went to a crappy undergrad business school where I was way smarter than the other people in my ckasses(not UF. or FSU lol). I finished in three years though and went to an amazing grad school. I retired at 40. I’m super happy in life. I’m so glad I didn’t go to an expensive Ivy. I’m thrilled with the path I took.
Your kids aren’t in diapers anymore. Give them the advice of the options and your wisdom from being older, and then LET GO.
Taking a full ride when you can’t pay isn’t gaming the system, either. NMF scholarships of any size are not an exploit or a loophole.
They have been earned by the students to whom they are awarded.
@itsgettingreal17 Agree but the takeaway is that no one knows if their kid is going to get a full ride to any college when they are younger so plan their college future accordingly by assuming they will not get a dime of merit and start saving today, even if it’s a small amount.
Not crazy at all – pick an out of pocket per year limit and then challenge her to find that or better
And a word of caution to the parents of younger children reading this… colleges are not obligated to maintain their merit award programs in perpetuity. I know a LOT of kids who decided sophomore year that they were going to target merit only colleges… only to have the free rides cut back to tuition only; tuition only cut back to 15K per year; or 50 awards total trimmed to 5.
@collegedad13 Make lots of money?? You are kidding right? It doesn’t take MUCH money to not get financial aid- and depending on where you live the COL can be a huge factor.
However, targeting merit scholarships is similar to targeting more selective schools (that may have better need based financial aid) or trying to maximize one’s college choices generally – rigorous college-prep course selections, better grades, better test scores, better EC achievement, etc., so it is not like one has to commit to targeting merit scholarships to the exclusion of any other college-prep activities.