Those are all valid concerns, but I think it’s going to be tough to find gender parity in Engineering or Physics.
5 Likes
All very wise and valid reasons, to me, to spend the $. But then again, we are one of the ones paying full price for a dream school now (no loans, but cutting back lots of other things we do not consider as important as a top education) and have no regrets. Hopefully, we will get the opportunity to pay for the next one at a best-fit /one of their top choice schools.
4 Likes
I am in a different position, in that I can pay for any college my kids may want, but refuse to unless there is a compelling ROI argument. I made both my kids formulate and present me with an ROI based on future earning based on course of study. I think it was beneficial to them to begin to think the way a value investor thinks.
4 Likes
This is a great response. Just make sure your kid sits down with you and thinks this through and understands how much this opportunity will cost over 40 years. Make sure you use a compounding calculator. I know first hand that many kids do not/did not understand this, including my own. When you tell them that this opportunity will cost about $4 million to you in the long run, they might look at the option differently. I know mine did.
5 Likes
We are in the same boat and have looked at acceptances through the eyes of ROI as well as long term investment. Though we never had our '22 kid write it out. LOL. Oldest might end up opening a business one day or going to law school. Totally understands that a slight difference in perceived college status is not worth huge sums. Took a couple off the list which were really high prices relative to other factors.
Actually, we found the OOS top U’s the hardest to justify. They came off the list first. They offered zero merit ( which we heard is common for OOS) and had really high sticker prices for full pay. The privates offered merits/special opps/other benefits.
We’ve also factored in several paths for our kid. Not every path is going to have the same results. We wanted to ensure that if kid wanted to go to law school/grad school etc there would be options.
6 Likes
Bringing it down to ROI alone is fine if it’s about the credential alone and what it does for job prospects. But it’s also about 4 years of life at a critical point in life.
You wouldn’t compare a stay-cation and a week in Paris (or a resort or whatever) using ROI. You’d compare based on how well they’d serve your R&R needs…
Of course, there are factors including how much $ you have, but it’s not JUST that for many families.
20 Likes
Exactly. Good time to learn how finance works for MOST families. Bill Gates’ daughter is a horse caretaker or some such. Must be wonderful to have that option. Unfortunately, my poor parents could not offer me that option. In any event, the point of the thread is whether or not parents came to regret paying for a dream school NOT should we pay for a dream school? I must say that I have come to appreciate the counterpoints and opinions. There is no wrong answer, but rather shaping your child’s journey through your own perspectives and helping them make the best decision for their lives.
2 Likes
I think everyone does the ROI analysis on some level. You may not sit down with pen and paper or create a spreadsheet but you are determining that paying $x for Y school is worth it to you (also looking at $w for Z school in comparison in many cases). May not necessarily be all tangible benefits/returns though. And as x increases (or the delta between x and w increases), you expect fewer will pick Y (and vice versa). Ultimately though different people make different decisions.
Cost is a significant factor for most people on this site. Its even more true outside this site. And often times is the most important factor. Some here seem to look down on that reality. Certainly not all though.
There has been a change in the last generation or 2. At one point with far fewer people going to college, a degree from anywhere in anything was more beneficial because it showed a level of smarts, discipline and dedication that was valued. Now with more people going to college, that benefit has decreased substantially. Combine that with significantly increased costs and the focusses have changed for an increasing number of people.
2 Likes
I agree a “ROI” analysis is called for, but in our family, return does not equal $$. I frankly hate the comments where it seems the contention is that the only kids that should attend anything beyond a state school are those that are bound for engineering, Finance and CS. What a grind colleges would be in that world - goodbye dreamers, goodbye Humanities kids and artists and go-gooders like my D22 who wants to run a nonprofit and change the world. These comments basically say those kids and their life path have less value.
I’m not being obtuse - I understand that taking on a large amount of debt can be especially crippling to those graduates who don’t enter the job market making high salaries. If the money is there, I see no reason why my daughter’s college choice should be limited by a perceived future paycheck.
Our return takes into account quality of life, academics and peers.
23 Likes
Oh my. That horse caretaker is a Stanford grad and an accomplished equestrian who competes in Grand Prix events. She’s in her second year of med school.
17 Likes
I don’t know that my story will help you, but your dilemma jumped out at me because I was in a similar place as a high school senior. I really wanted to go to Rose Hulman and did not want to go to a big school (Michigan). But, the finances didn’t work out for Rose Hulman (I had a bigger difference than the $4-5k/yr that you have) and I ended up at Michigan. I really disliked my first semester - even thought about transferring somewhere closer to home and commuting. Felt like I didn’t fit in and wouldn’t find my people. But, I pushed myself to join more clubs, connect with professors, and try new things. It didn’t happen right away, but I did find my people. Once engineering classes started that helped too because it made it feel like a much smaller school. By senior year, I felt like I had really lucked out being “forced” to choose the school I didn’t want. It allowed me to graduate with no debt and provided many opportunities that I wouldn’t have had at a smaller school.
Since I had been so against the big school at the beginning, had I chosen Rose Hulman, I think I would have had a great experience and would have graduated feeling that was the right choice! I think the no debt made a big difference for me, but things probably would have been fine with debt similar to what your son will have (especially if he works summers and puts that towards it). However, maybe help your son see that it’s not just $20k debt, it’s that plus whatever extra he won’t get (growing in a Roth, car, house help, etc). So maybe closer to $50-70k?
Just like with everyone, my experiences color what I want for my kids. I do want them to feel like there is “fit” at the college they choose, but I also think that the likelihood they can judge that as high school seniors who have never experienced college is low. We really push staying within our limit and graduating debt free because I think they can be happy and successful at many schools. I tell them that they need to be prepared to feel like they may not have made the right choice. I encourage them to explore their interests and try new things no matter where they end up. I look at opportunities outside their major that the school has and list those as a column on our college spreadsheet (might be classes or clubs or things local to the area). Hopefully no matter where they end up, by the time they get their degree they will be convinced they made the right choice!
I actually just read something similar in the “Colleges your child crossed off after visiting” thread - a tour guide who said a school had been her last choice and she was kind of mad she had gotten a full ride, but she has ended up loving it.
11 Likes
@AgeofAquarius your story hit home with me. I went the other way and went to the dream school and took out some debt. It was not a ton of debt but still debt. I met my wife who took out 3.5 times the amount of debt that I had. We got married and lived happily ever after.
But because of that debt we have not been able to do exactly what we wanted in life. That debt is long gone in the rear view mirror, but if that had been invested it would be substantial now. Also we lived like we were poor for many years after college because of the debt. We did without. We took a driving honeymoon. Waited to buy certain things. Didn’t go on special vacations. Didn’t eat out much.
If that money had been saved we could have sent our D19 to her first choice school, but we couldn’t. She is at a very good school and will graduate with no debt. Maybe she will be able to send her kids to where ever they want to go to college, but we couldn’t.
Neither of us came from money. Both of us were first gen students. We are building some generational wealth to be passed along, but in many ways less debt would have made life much easier.
I think the best gift we gave our D19 is a start in life without being burden with debt. She did earn many scholarships and she is part of that reason for sure. We just never wanted our kids to go through the struggle we did right after college.
30 Likes
Our ROI isn’t purely financial either. It’s a combination of hard (ROI, graduation rates, alumni etc) and soft factors (size of classes, curriculum, special programs, food, reputation, location etc).
Our kids lists also vary. One kid might one thing and another something very different.
I agree college is about 4 years of life at a critical point, but no one knows the path not taken. And what 4 years of youth aren’t critical? The most expensive path may not be best. And people tend to have confirmation bias. Have you ever read a post by a CC parent who sent their kid to the most expensive school saying it wasn’t worth it? Sometimes people complain about their loans but they often blame the cost of college education rather than this is the specific path I chose and now I owe.
I’d ask my kid can you get this elsewhere and what are the tradeoffs between various programs. It’s a complex formula.
I find the idea of sending a kid to any school they want without regard to cost overly simplistic and sending a kid to school purely for a degree also simplistic.
4 Likes
You basically validated everything I was saying. It is nice to have options.
I think a financial ROi by itself is terrible way to pick a school. I’m going to use myself as an example. Pre-senior year of college, I was figuring out my next step:
- law school
- PhD program
- public policy program.
From a straight ROI perspective, law school would have likely been a better choice but I don’t think I would have been as happy.
Flash forward to the early 2000s-- again I got a job offer that from a ROI perspective I should have taken. But taking it would have destroyed my ability to engage in a volunteer activity that I’m good and that I was nationally recognized for in 2019.
7 Likes
First time on this thread… but isn’t that what the discussion title implies (that you have options and selected the “dream” school - whatever that means. I’m sure it’s defined repeatedly above, but I’m going to enjoy my naïveté.)
In the spirit of the thread…2 EDs, 2 acceptances, 2 4-year graduates in the majors they intended when applying, 2 children satisfied that they selected the right school, 2 jobs outta school that required their degrees: 0 regrets.
[ I reserve the right to regret not taking loans if Biden decides to forgive them]
6 Likes
That’s fantastic! You hit the jackpot, twice.
I wonder why we are having a national conversation regarding loan forgiveness! Should we play the “Wait, wait, don’t tell me game?”
Anyway, I think this thread has aged like milk. Muting and moving on.
Our ROI wasn’t financial either. That said, we were determined that our kids get out of college with no or little debt. That’s why we encouraged them to apply to places that were affordable and we also encouraged them to apply for every scholarship they could. Every little bit helps. Getting good grades in both high school and college was expected.
Also, not everyone has the aptitude and ability to study engineering, finance, medicine, and computer science. Not everyone can be an engineer, doctor, investment banker, etc. You want to major in something that you can do well in, you don’t want to struggle throughout college and barely pass all your classes.
I agree. We aren’t made of money. We wanted our kids to graduate without debt and that was a requirement no matter what they majored in.
I also think that college is only 4 years. Some people think college is the be all and the end all. It isn’t. It’s important, but it’s not the holy grail.
7 Likes
Agree. I think for us, having kids with a job that can pay their bills and a loving person to share their lives with is the goal. Everything else is just a bonus.
15 Likes
So true!
I work at a school where the obsession with top schools is rampant with some parents. Different strokes for different folks, but some of the kids are so stressed out due to all the pressure that their parents place on them.
2 Likes