<p>For specs who would like a broad range of student opinion at a much higher level than found on the Jolt, I would recommend the Swarthmore live journal:</p>
<p>You can search the archives for student opinion on workloads, departments, courses, professors, social scene, and so on and so forth.</p>
<p>It's a useful supplement to actually visiting and talking to students in person.</p>
<p>
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at a much higher level than found on the Jolt,
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<p>I believe there was only one way to go</p>
<p>thanks for the clarification, SS08. </p>
<p>collegialmom - go back to the third post in this thread, by interesteddad:</p>
<p>"The Daily Jolters said last night that they planned to visit en masse and attempt to make this forum useless by swamping it with negative comments. Looks like we have our first visitor."</p>
<p>interesteddad reads the jolt, and he read the jolt before i mentioned that that's how i found out about this forum. when i posted, i had no idea that he or any other parent had read the jolt or even had any idea what it was. if i've now somehow publicized the existence of the jolt, i think that's rather innocuous. you're not going to read the jolt regularly? great. all i was saying is that a parent who reads the jolt (swarthmore's electronic bathroom wall) habitually should re-evaluate what they're doing. i don't think that's unreasonable.</p>
<p>"do i miss any posts by dissatisfied customers?" how about you wait four years? how many actual current swarthmore students are posting on this forum who had part of their initial conception of the school shaped by this forum or interesteddad? not a whole lot, right? what you have are a lot of kids who are either worried about finding and getting into a good school, in which case ID is telling them only about how great swarthmore is, or at this point kids who are overjoyed at their admission and want to agree with ID that everything about swarthmore is perfect (aside from the existence of the frats, naturally). either way, they don't have a whole lot of first-hand experience with the place. they went to spec weekend? great, and while their opinions should obviously be respected, they should also be weighed - one night plus a lot of forum-reading does not equal being a sophomore (SS08) does not equal being an alum. i'm not saying "bow down before the great nancy_reagan" - that's silly. but i'm just surprised at how resistant (and sometimes hostile) some parents have been to some of the observations i made during four years at the school. </p>
<p>i get the distinct feeling that most people replying aren't actually listening to a word i say. "the main hope i personally have for this swarthmore forum is that potential students will get facts and impressions of swarthmore" - absolutely, collegialmom, i have the same hope as you do and i've repeatedly said as much. the only difference between us being that i think that ID doesn't do the bang-up job that that people less acquainted with the school seem to think he does.</p>
<p>"johnwesley", on the other hand, raises an excellent point. it would be idiotic of me to write off absolutely everything that ID says as "statistical garbage", and so i don't. that said, perhaps it's my in-born mistrust of authority, but i wouldn't be surprised if the school fudged some of its numbers before releasing them. swarthmore's administration overall is pretty good, but that's not to say that they're angels - according to a coach i talked to, jim bock would tell him which of his recruits he should use his slots on and which recruits will get into the school anyway - this is against the college's stated policy, naturally. in light of this, i don't think it's really that off-base to be suspicious of the numbers they publish. </p>
<p>do i think that student perception is always right, and that the facts don't matter? absolutely not. if the numbers ID showed are exactly true, and the somewhat wild fluctuations (5% still really seems big to me) actually are uncontrollable, then i'm wrong about the administration fiddling with enrollment. however, i think that ID is wrong yet again - "the phoenix has written the same story about increased police presence every year for the last eight years" is a topic...that you can find on the jolt every year. as far as getting any real news about the college, the phoenix isn't the best place to do that. there's not really much that happens on campus that's exactly newsworthy, and the phoenix has to fill pages, so they wind up running the same tired stories every year (the optimistic sports previews are particularly hilarious). the phoenix is openly scoffed-at by students, and a friend who was managing editor for a year admitted that the level of reporting wasn't actually very good. the photo editor i dated admitted that the pictures selected for the covers were almost universally awful. so, that's the phoenix.</p>
<p>as far as politeness goes, i'm not going to say that "i disagree" when there's something about which someone is dead wrong, and about which they simply can't know with certainty by virtue of the nature of their relationship to the school. i'll stand by what i said: "a lot of interesteddad's comments really are either blatantly ignorant or blatantly dishonest". that said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with ignorance, particularly from someone who isn't in a position to know the full truth. what bothers me, and what i think can certainly be a destructive force is the willful ignorance that seems to be displayed by ID that refuses even to consider another inarguably valid point of view.</p>
<p>Just to give a bit of personal background, my first experience with CC was probably summer in between junior year and senior year. However at the time my Dad was the one who would check the site and I would only ever bother reading posts he called my attention to. I remeber some of the personalities, like interesteddad and offbeat_ophelia (I think that was how she spelled it) but I honestly don't remeber walking away from CC with any firm opinion on what Swat would be like. Even having been on campus twice, gone on tours, done an overnight, sat in on some classes, and read a lot of guides, I really didn't know what to expect from Swat other than a place where there were a lot of smartkids with varying ranges of eccentricity. In hindsight I guess you could say I was very nervous at times, but optimistic on the whole. However it is important to note that the impressions I had going it to the school as to where I would "fit in" at the school, what clubs and groups I would be in and what kind of friends I would have turned out to be complete wrong, and i foound myself involved in parts of campus life that I had previously not even considered.</p>
<p>One thing I remeber about CC from when I was applying: there were a lot of chances threads.</p>
<p>I just happened to come across this thread, and as a parent of two ivey-leaguers (one graduated, one a freshman), I have to say that I strongly believe that the academic pressures at Swathmore are BEYOND what occurs at almost all other top tier schools. Reading and hearing about what students describe at Swathmore, it sounds intense to the extreme. While both my kids work(ed) hard and did very well, academic pressure never seemed to reach the proportions that students at Swathmore describe. I think it is dangerous to white-wash these differences, --- to simply say students at Swathmore "work hard" denies what so many kids are telling us. You simply do not hear kids from Penn, Brown, Harvard, etc. relating that kind of experience. Yes, they are stressed out during midterms and finals, and yes, they sometimes can feel overloaded, particularly if they undertook a very difficult courseload. But, believe me, academics are not their whole lives by any stretch...</p>
<p>Just like when the issue of drinking comes up, and people say "drinking goes on at every school", it denies distinct differences in degree and how much it defines a school's culture. Denying, or minimizing these differences, is a disservice to prospective students.</p>
<p>So, when i-dad says things "the average student at the school studies hard" or "Swathmore is academically challenging", I believe he is feigning honesty; the terms he uses actually blur the reality that students there are highlighting in bold relief..</p>
<p>I think it's fair to say that any student who averages 5 courses per semester at Swarthmore, instead of the standard 4 courses per semester, will have chosen a challenging workload.</p>
<p>Happy New Year all you parents and students who love Swarthmore, sometimes more, sometimes less!</p>
<p>Much of this thread is starting to remind me of the story of the six blind men and the elephant. Yes, nancy_reagan certainly had the experience she had, her love-hate relationship, and though I don't much care for her tone, it might be helpful to various kids considering Swarthmore to hear what she has to say. But she cannot speak for all alums or all Swarthmore students or all Swarthmore honors students. Nobody can. ID also has experience, both through his research and what he hears from his daughter, just like many other of the parents here who talk to their children who are at Swarthmore. None of us here has the absolute take on Swarthmore, just like nobody has the absolute take on any other school. Each individual experiences what s//he experiences. And each report on those experiences can be weighted for its credibility and its value. But a parent report, or a first-year or second-year student report, is perfectly valid for what it is.</p>
<p>I was quite happy to hear last year about ID's daughter's experiences, her interactions with her hall-mates and her trips into Phillie, just as I was glad to hear from Achat about what her son had to say, especially that he had managed to work into his schedule a language class at Penn. (I hope I got that fact quite right!)</p>
<p>My own daughter is a first-year student. And, yes, all her classes are pass-fail, but that doesn't seem to have changed her work habits any. She reports that she has less stress and less work than she did in high school. She has friendships and outings and extra-curriculars. As much as possible, I think she went to Swarthmore knowing as much as you can know. She visited, she spoke to current students, she spoke to alums (yes, even one who had been in the honors program). Did she think she knew everything there was to know about the school in advance? No, of course not. Nobody can. People can be in the same environment and have different experiences and different reactions. But the more information from the more people, the better.</p>
<p>So, if anyone wants to give their opinion and share their experience, that's great. But telling someone else that their experience is not valid, just because it doesn't recapitulate your own, well...it says more about the speaker than the person being spoken of.</p>
<p>I have found both ID and NRs posts to be interesting and useful.
I do think this topic has been done to death. Happy new year to everyone! I hope that Searching's conciliatory statements will be the last posting under this topic.</p>
<p>I also think the elephant analogy is an apt one. Each student sees any college for a limited period of time, usually 4 years. They have their own experience, and it is the most valid and relevant one for them. It certainly is not the only experience of the college, nor is it necessarily the usual experience.</p>
<p>The college search process is a challenging one. Once you get beyond the window decal, name recognition phase, the most reasonable approach seems to find the school that best matches the student in terms of whatever is important for that student. That might be atmosphere, location, climate, extra-curriculars, etc. </p>
<p>This is difficult to do, because it not only asks for a lot of self-knowledge of a 17 year old, but also for as realistic appraisal as possible of what life, both academic and social, is like at the school. That is where this forum can be one reasource. But if possible talk to recent alums, current students, and so on to get a more complete picture and other views of the elephant.</p>
<p>That said, I think both interesteddad and Nancy_Reagan have expressed their views a bit more forcefully than I care for. But they both have a great deal of useful information, as long as the reader realizes that they are one viewpoint not gospel.</p>
<p>I find interesteddad's ability to extract statistical information about Swarthmore quite remarkable, and I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the numbers. In this regard I think Swarthmore is somewhat more forthcoming than other colleges I've looked at in putting quite a bit of interesting data out on the web.</p>
<p>Nancy_Reagan is probably right in saying that the experience of sophomores and especially first semester freshman does not fully capture the academic intensity of Swarthmore. And having the perspective of recent alums and/or current juniors or seniors should be a very good one to have.</p>
<p>On one specific point: It is unrealistic to expect that parents will not read the jolt. I don't spend a lot of time reading it, but I especially like the professor quotes. In fact, I submitted one. Anything on the web is fair game.</p>
<p>Full disclosure:
I'm a Swarthmore alum (in honors when you had to take 6 seminars not just the current 4). I have a daughter who is currently a junior. I have close relatives who graduated from Swarthmore in the 1960s, the 1970s and the 1990s. But do I think I know THE story about Swarthmore? No, but I've gotten a pretty good glimpse of the elephant.</p>
<p>"I've gotten a pretty good glimpse of the elephant."</p>
<p>Me, too, Dadx,</p>
<p>I have two parents, one daughter, and one son-in-law who has a sister and a brother, all of whom graduated from Swat. I still value what EVERYone has to say on this forum, and frankly find it refreshing to talk to people who have heard of the college, which rarely happens in my TN neck of the woods. Hope we can all remember that everyone is entitled to an opinion.</p>
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.... the experience of sophomores and especially first semester freshman does not fully capture the academic intensity of Swarthmore....
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</p>
<p>Nor should it. If even a bright 18 year old were prepared for senior year at Swarthmore, then what would be the point of wasting 4 years and $160,000 of somebody's money there? Frankly, if 4th year college academics don't look impossibly challenging to a high school senior, then something is seriously wrong with the college. The whole point of the endeavor is to roll the ball forward.</p>
<p>In theory, at least, you would like to build steadily in your academic capabilities from first semester freshman year until graduation four years later, being challenged to appropriate degrees along the way. The freshmen I met dropping off daughter for first-year orientation were certainly not as "smart" as the Swarthmore seniors who spoke to us. But, there is no reason to believe they won't be by the time they are 21 and graduating from Swarthmore, instead of 18 and just entering. </p>
<p>Get through freshman year and you'll be ready for sophmore year. Get through sophmore year and you'll be smart enough and have learned enough tricks of the trade (or, more importantly, how to select professors) for junior year. And, so on. This is why GPAs, on average, tend to rise from freshman to senior year at Swarthmore (and at most colleges).</p>
<p>From some of the sad first-year tales of woe we read on College Confidential from time to time, I suspect that evaluating the freshman year experience at the college of their choice is probably gracious plenty for most high-school applicants to worry about.</p>
<p>To Nancy: I was hoping you could answer the following questions, and Swatstudent08 where relevant:
Um this is kind of fun, I hope whatever I say is helpful.
1. What are/were the most positive aspects of Swathmore for you when you attended there (academic and/or social)?
Um I made amazing friends, I had a wonderful time (partied kinda hard), I loved most of my classes, I discovered stuff I was passionate about and good at that I hadn't known about before. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>What are/were the most negative (academic and/or social)?
Academically... I was never too stressed out by academics, but there were two classes that stressed me out because I CARED about them, liked the professors a lot, and couldn't seem to produce very good work in them anyways. These weren't really distressing experiances, but thats that. Socially... I had a great time... the first bit of second semester junior year wa a bit stressful because a lot of my friends went abroad... so I made new friends, and then everyone came back and it was all good. </p></li>
<li><p>What made you decide to do the Honors Program? Was it overall a good experience?
I wanted to take honors seminars. I loved seminars. I decided not to stress that much about honors exams, and so some of them were rather fun (not all) and over all I don't think it was more stressful than choosing to write a thesis. If you are a person who would enjoy the seminar format (for instance, if you would enjoy taking about your own, and other peoples' papers) then I say go for honors. The final honors exams are not that big a deal, as it doesn't really matter how you do on them. </p></li>
<li><p>What was your major? Did it have relevance to what you did after Swarthmore, and did it prepare you for your subsequent life and/or academic experiences?
Political science. Yes it did have relevance, and it did prepare me well for subsequent life. I don't think I would have been upset if it hadn't, though.</p></li>
<li><p>This is a serious question, not facetious: When your girfriend was there for the 10 weekends when you were a 1st year student, how did you work this out with your roommate. I know this is a difficult topic at times, and it would be helpful to others to know if there was "magic" solution.
Yeah, 10 weekend in a row is a bit rought. Wait until the roomate isn't in the room. </p></li>
<li><p>Looking back, would you have picked Swarthmore again, or are there other colleges/universities you regret not attending.
I for sure would have picked swat again. </p></li>
<li><p>Did you ever consider transferring?
no
Thank you. Any input from any other Swarthmore students, past or present, would I'm sure be helpful to others.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Good questions. Anyone else?</p>
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I don't understand why you didn't just start a thread here about your 'own' impressions on Swarthmore instead of attacking interesteddad for his postings. </p>
<p>Unless interesteddad is getting compensated in some way from Swarthmore while posing as merely an interested parent, he is in every way entitled to expressing his opinions here. </p>
<p>You too are free to express your opinions about Swarthmore - however it's not necessary to criticize others.
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<p>Agreed.</p>
<p>Thanks ID for your helpfulness throughout this process.</p>
<p>Nancy Reagan didn't set out to "give her impressions of Swarthmore". She wanted to clear up what she felt were distortions posted by some people here. That's all. I don't think any of you can argue that she doesn't have a point. So let her be heard. It's her opinion, and since she actually was a student at the school, no one should try to discredit her for having an opinion that isn't consistent with the warm fuzzy Swarthmore feeling some here are always trying to get across.</p>
<p>It makes sense doesn't it? If the school is the most rigorous and demanding in the country, wouldn't many of the students, even some of the best ones, be overwhelmed and stressed out? some here want to promote the super intellectual anywhere else it would've been an A thing, but refuse to acknowledge the downside of that. you can't have your prestigious name brand rigorous college cake and eat it too.</p>