@doschicos I don’t want him or anyone like him as a roommate to my Jewish son. It takes me a loooong time to forgive comments like that. If ever.
Many versions of a statement have been made here to the effect that “this kid should go somewhere other than Harvard to reform himself”. Why would it be fine for him to do that somewhere else but not fine to do it at Harvard? Other schools will have African Americans as part of their student body. His presence on other campuses will be problematic. He had been accepted at Harvard, so it can’t be said that he was merely one of many qualified applicants who didn’t make the cut. Harvard apologists are outraged by the iniquity of what the kid said, but will any of them admit that it is also simply problematic for Harvard as an institution to have to deal with this? It is rather convenient - too convenient, I would say - when public relations considerations dovetail so nicely with ostensibly moral ones.
It was @DeepBlue86 himself who said that this kid was simply “too hot to handle”. Taking risks is for lesser institutions.
“but will any of them admit that it is also simply problematic for Harvard as an institution to have to deal with this? It is rather convenient - too convenient, I would say - when public relations considerations dovetail so nicely with ostensibly moral ones.”
Sure, Harvard doesn’t want him on campus because they don’t want to deal with him. Why would they invite that kind of circus? People have already commented on that and it is part of the decision/discussion. Nothing wrong with that. Good for Harvard. They have all their students, staff and faculty to consider.
As far as other schools, they can make their own informed choices now that info is on the table, which it wasn’t when Harvard accepted him this Spring.
Agree with @doschicos. What other schools do is up to them . He can apply to other schools and I’m sure someone will take him. Personally I think he’d be better off taking a gap year and trying to do so something that helps to redeem himself and shows growth. Public schools, as Maya said, can’t hold his speech against him but of course they can deny him for what he said without ever letting on that that’s the reason. Cat’s out of the bag so who knows how he’ll be perceived now by other schools. History dictates that in the long term, if he works on himself a bit, he’ll be just fine.
I don’t understand those here who can look past the comments made and how vile they were. Add to that the mindset of a person who becomes a spokesperson for gun rights at a time when a mass shooting had taken place at his High School. Does that show empathy or sensitivity for your classmates or your community or the issue of mass shootings in general?
Harvard admitted him knowing about his activism. I think that speaks volumes for their appreciation for opposing views. Harvard rescinded when they became aware of his hate filled rants.
I do feel sorry for this kid because I know what he lost, Harvard is an amazing place.
Hopefully as a result of this some kid that has done everything right will be given his spot and will make the most of their opportunity.
@maya54 I am sorry that you find the consequences of what happened to Kashuv and the 1st amendment rights issue frightening. Private institutions just have a lot more leeway and have always had that leeway. If Kashuv thinks his rights have truly been trampled, he can take this to court. But I have probably lived in America that is different from your experience. As a 12 year old, I watched a 13 year old kid handcuffed and taken to jail for calling a police officer a non-threatening derogatory remark (charges were ultimately dropped) while walking past a known drug house in my neighborhood. I would suggest to all prospective students to be careful what you say in this social media age because I can see a lot less causing someone to never get admitted in the 1st place if caught up front. Counting on the 1st Amendment to protect you is a bad move even with public schools because if they decided to fight the case, it could be years (and a lot of resources) before a final decision is made.
While the first part is deeply offensive, the latter part seems bizarre, because Kyle himself is Jewish.
I don’t need my kids to meet or room with this kid, to somehow expand their world view. We took care of that awareness as parents raising them. Their schools enhanced this. They read the news, process, and discuss with friends. They know what goes on around us. No heads in the sand.
They know ardent gun enthusiasts and defenders of the 2nd Amendment. So what? That’s not what this situation is about.
It’s the unchecked spewing of hatred. No one should be trying so hard to defend that. I.M.O.
We’re dealing with what is, not some hypothetical situation. The kid did it, repeated instances, it’s on record, it did not appear at the time he was admitted, and Harvard gave him a chance to explain. His explanation was unsatisfactory.
He needs to either grow or not grow, his choice. Maybe he finds another college home, that’s not what this is about.
@ChangeTheGame I was responding to those who claimed public universities could do the same as Harvard. That’s what I find frightening. That citizens of this country think that. Or that the First Amendment only protects you from going to jail. I believe that especially now that it is vital that everyone fully understand that. Being afraid to say what you think because a public college may act in violation of your rights is frightening to me. It’s so easy to say who cares when the statement is to us reprehensible and not worthy of protection. And then you see the poster who maintains that David Hogg’s statements are the same and should be subject to the same treatment.
If the rationale for the decision is fundamentally that “Harvard finds it inconvenient to have this student on campus”, then I can accept the coherence of that policy while thinking it does say something unsettling about the Harvard ethos. But most of the apologists here highly stress a component of shunning and moral outrage. Moral philosophers tell us that a moral principle can’t be an ad hoc invention. If the kid’s depravity is so great that you hold it correct for Harvard to refuse him, then you must necessarily hold that every other school must refuse him. Otherwise your position is incoherent. It is not sufficient to say that in practice some other school will take him. I sense that not many of you want to say that no school should take him. But if that is so and is a reason for letting Harvard off the hook, then it comes to no more than saying that Harvard can do what Harvard wants to do.
@hebegebe He said it was a “joke”. I don’t know about others but my own Jewish kids don’t joke about stuff like that.
@marlowe1 I’m perfectly ok with every other University shunning him.If the law says a public institution cannot do so then I have to respect that law. As I said earlier, even public schools at this point can reject him on what he said. They just don’t have to say that’s why they are rejecting him.
I agree with much of what you said regarding public schools/First Amendment. However, I disagree with this-I don’t think racist rhetoric is the kind of “diversity of ideas” that any college benefits from. Public institutions have to put up with it, but I don’t agree that there is any value in this kind of philosophy.
I see this kid going on to get into a good school and beyond that, into continued fame/controversy as an activist. Who knows, he could end up working side by side with Stephen Miller someday in the political or private realm.
Kyle Kashuv wouldn’t be the first youth to turn his back on his origin story. Steven Miller was raised in a liberal Jewish family.
My point with mentioning public schools is that I absolutely think schools are using behavioral reports from schools for entry. If you have a track record of hate speech and inciting violence verbally at school or one of your references outs you, a college could definitely take that into account. You just wouldn’t ever really know why you weren’t accepted. Very few schools have GUARANTEE of acceptance with scores. But that isn’t relevant to this discussion anyway. The NRA is a non-profit. Should they have to require equal speaking time for gun control groups?
This young man was planning on taking a gap year anyway before heading to Harvard. This isn’t that awful for him. He could hop into a diverse volunteer position now and write a great essay about rethinking his views. I wonder where his parents are in all this. He has made some questionable actions the past couple years. Including posting his Harvard letter online with his home address. He seems very impulsive and immature. And I am the parent of an 18 year old high stat male. He’d be wise to step away from the lime light for a bit.
I’m certainly not saying that, and I don’t think most of the commenters upthread feel that way (although clearly some do).
I wasn’t in Bill Fitzsimmons’ office when the decision was made to rescind Kashuv’s admission, but I have to think that a judgment was made as to how much disruption his presence might cause (students refusing to live with him or claiming that being near him made them feel unsafe, him maintaining his high public profile and continuing to give speeches which now might attract counterdemonstrators in large numbers, a campaign to shun him or drive him off campus, a barrage of stories in the Crimson - possibly the national press, too - about how racial and religious incitement isn’t a disqualifier for Harvard, aggrieved alumni and faculty asking pointedly why Harvard couldn’t find a suitable substitute for him among the tens of thousands of kids denied admission in his year, and on and on, for four years or more).
This incident, mind you, is playing out while Harvard is dealing with a number of PR problems related to inclusivity, including: the admissions lawsuit related to alleged anti-Asian discrimination; the faculty deans in Winthrop House whose contract wasn’t renewed, almost certainly because of the furor caused by their association with Harvey Weinstein’s defense team; and the ongoing controversial campaign by Harvard to delegitimize the final clubs and other single-sex organizations.
A broad range of political views co-exist at Harvard, and Kashuv’s were deemed to be acceptable (in fact welcomed with an offer of admission) until his other writings were exposed, making it clear that he now would be a net detractor from the learning environment at Harvard rather than a contributor to it - whatever his personal attributes - because of all the collateral damage he was likely to cause. Again, this was a business decision made by Harvard, not a personal one. There are plenty of people who are great at their jobs but very difficult to work with, and when their net contributions are weighed up and found wanting, they’re fired.
There may well be other universities that are satisfied that his presence would be worth it - possibly the University of Chicago. Every community is different. Maybe later, after a period of public repentance and good works, he’ll get to go to Harvard after all, although I wouldn’t bet on it - there are plenty of fabulous candidates without baggage, and now he’s tried to embarrass Harvard by going public. He’ll get to go somewhere, though, if he wants, and I have no doubt he’ll be successful in the meantime. A golden future awaits in Foxworld, he can travel the country giving paid speeches and writing a book about his martyrdom to political correctness, and, eventually if he wants, reapply to college with an enhanced resume and a more developed story to tell.
Your utilitarian argument, @DeepBlue86 , is more convincing than the moralistic ones. If the argument is moralistic, then, as @collegemom9 is frank to say, one would advocate shunning of the kid by all schools everywhere and possibly for all time. You do not say that, and not many here say it.
Your explanation of how this actually went down is convincing to me: Harvard wanted to avoid all the troubles it saw coming given the notoriety that Kashuv had achieved. No doubt the Establishment culture of Harvard lay behind the predictability of those troubles. How would the University of Chicago have dealt with Kashuv? I would like to think that its culture could have found a place for him. Kashuv himself has not been damaged by not getting to go to Harvard. Perhaps there is nothing not to like about that outcome.
However, the frenzy of condemnation of this kid that the affair has stirred up worries me, and it disappoints me that a great university succumbs to it. Have all the shunners and condemners forgotten what it was like to be a half-baked 16-year-old, full of would-be dazzling insights into the corruption of his elders, and a strong desire to shock, reject all received wisdom, and generally epater le bourgeoisie? Shock is the coin of the realm for such a kid. Years ago in the fifties in small-town West Texas I used to like to let on to my teachers and school-mates that I might be a communist. I had mastered and loved using the vocabulary that made me out to be a dangerous subversive. Some of my teachers took the bait. There were meetings in the Principal’s office, and at one point a preacher was called in. You get the idea. Most of that was an immature act of a restless teenager feeling his oats and trying to figure out how to present himself in the adult world. Going to College sobered me up and taught me nuance. A great education is supposed to do that. Above all else it taught me to value actual analysis and the dialectic of multiple ideas. Maybe Harvard could have given that gift to Kashuv. We will never know. But Harvard will have avoided the inconvenience of it all.
@marlowe1 You are taking some liberties with what I said. Yes, I said I’d be ok with all Universities shunning him. I did not say for all time and I certainly did not say that I would advocate for it. But no, I do not want this kid being my son’s roommate today or ever.
I remember being a half baked 16 year old. I’ve never said these things even in my worst of moments and as a Jew, I would never utter or write the words "kill all the Jews"and neither would my kids.
So yes, I’m perfectly fine with him having his admission rescinded and I’m ok with the fact that his actions had consequences. Hopefully, he figures out a way our of this mess. His excuses thus far seem like just that, excuses.
First of all, identifying as a communist is not hate speech. It would have played differently in the 50’s obviously. But I do think a thoughtful kid who identified as a communist could gain entry to Harvard if he wasn’t using hate speech and was otherwise qualified. A college with a low acceptance rate even much higher than 5% IS more discerning in all ways. There are certainly kids out there with higher test scores and grades that were rejected and this kid surely got extra consideration because he has an interesting back story and a media presence. I feel like a lot of the hemming and hawing about this is lack of understanding about how holistic admissions work.
This is not the end of opportunities and education for this kid. It’s the beginning. Ball is in his court.
Some students get Cs in algebra. They don’t get to go to Harvard, and most people would say that’s fine. Some students are exposed as having uttered offensive racial slurs. They also don’t get to go to Harvard. Harvard can be very selective.
Other schools, which can’t be as picky as Harvard, admit students with some bad grades and students who have uttered racist slurs.
@marlowe1
Well said!
Being labeled a “communist” might be an even more dangerous “sin” in the fifties of America (though with the “people’s party” tradition of small-town Texas, you might have met more sympathy than condemnation?) than a “racist” of today.
I guess many of us grew out of our “half-baked” years more subdued and less shockingly. We forget.