Part I: Ignore the Rankings & Look at the Data (Retention & Graduation Rates)

<p>I think the more important point is that all anyone's trying to prove is correlation. No one thinks that the number on your SAT score report causes you to perform well in college, they think that it shares a common cause (intelligence, work ethic, etc) with doing well in college. If that's the case, then the SAT is useful in predicting college success. So, in fact, the goal here is to prove correlation, and correlation certainly implies correlation.</p>

<p>unregistered-
Graduation rates are determined by 150% of the official length of the program from which you graduate. If it is a 4-year grogram, you get 6 years to graduate under federal guidelines for calculating graduation rates. If it is a 5-year engineering program with time built in for internships, then you are counted as a graduate if you finish in 7.5 years.</p>

<p>It doesn't matter is you take two years off as long as you finish within the 150%.</p>

<p>Those are calendar years, not years of school.</p>

<p>svalbardlutefisk-
good point, I agree</p>

<p>hawkette:</p>

<p>think there is any connection to UVa's "impressive" graduation rates and low numbers of poor kids -- (not to mention your fondness for SAT scores)? hmmmmmm</p>

<p>ranking by endowment per student with SAT scores and ACT</p>

<p>school, endowment per student, SAT CR 25th, SAT CR 75th, SAT Math 25th, SAT math 75th, ACT 25th, ACT 75th</p>

<p>Princeton University 1871046.85 690 790 700 790 30 34
Yale University 1572412.44 700 790 690 790 29 34
Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering 1459844.59 690 780 740 800 33 36
Harvard University 1131658.79 700 800 700 790 31 35
Pomona College 943138.98 690 770 690 760 29 34
Grinnell College 889845.22 630 740 620 720 29 32
Swarthmore College 835199.2 680 780 680 760 27 33
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 818793.15 660 760 720 800 31 34
Stanford University 793637.01 660 760 680 790 29 33
Amherst College 791217.47 670 770 660 760 29 34
Rice University 773027.45 640 730 670 780 29 34
California Institute of Technology 761902.91 700 780 770 800 32 35
Williams College 714978.39 660 760 660 760 29 33
Wellesley College 628662.22 660 750 640 730 28 32
Dartmouth College 575012.89 670 770 680 780 28 34
Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art 454803.82 610 700 640 770 29 33
Cornell University Endowed Colleges 430096.13 645 740 690 785
Emory University 399743.73 640 730 660 740 29 33
Bowdoin College 392447.55 650 740 650 730 29 33
Haverford College 387453.67 650 750 640 740 Blank Blank
University of Notre Dame 383019.37 640 750 660 760 31 34
Smith College 377521.92 590 710 560 670 25 30
Washington University in St Louis 349280.32 680 750 690 780 30 33
Agnes Scott College 339378.06 550 680 500 610 22 29
Trinity University 328364.25 600 690 610 690 27 31
Claremont McKenna College 328265.2 650 750 650 750 27 32
Carleton College 327206.38 650 750 660 740 29 33
University of Chicago 322604.93 670 770 650 760 28 33
University of Richmond 320886.33 583 688 610 690 27 31
Bryn Mawr College 317192.85 620 730 580 690 26 30
Middlebury College 316006.06 630 740 640 740 29 32
Harvey Mudd College 312545.69 690 760 740 800 Blank Blank
Macalester College 304221.05 630 730 620 710 28 32
Vassar College 303832.45 660 740 640 710 29 31
Duke University 288934.18 650 760 680 780 29 34
Lafayette College 287078.6 570 680 610 710 25 30
Oberlin College 276118.26 640 750 610 710 26 32
Washington and Lee University 268266.91 660 740 650 720 28 31
Brown University 263741.08 660 760 670 770 28 33
Columbia University in the City of New York 261600.76 660 760 670 780 28 33
Colby College 258178.36 640 720 640 720 28 31
Davidson College 253225.83 630 723 640 713 28 32
Reed College 250103.61 680 760 630 710 28 32
Scripps College 249777.02 650 740 630 700 28 31
Vanderbilt University 246106.19 640 740 660 740 29 33
Denison University 238771.95 580 690 580 670 28 31
Earlham College 235551.64 570 690 550 650 24 29
Whitman College 228880.19 620 730 620 700 27 32
University of Pennsylvania 221701.66 650 750 680 770 29 33
Southwestern University 216336.76 560 680 570 660 24 29
Colorado College 207780.38 610 700 620 690 27 31
DePauw University 204565.31 530 650 540 660 25 30
Colgate University 196542.79 620 720 630 710 29 32
University of Tulsa 196282.67 560 700 580 700 24 30
Wesleyan University 192472.36 640 750 650 730 28 32
Cornell University 179271.89 630 730 660 770 28 32 (includes enrollment in NYS statutory colleges)
Jewish Theological Seminary of America 179259.66 650 730 630 690 29 31
Yeshiva University 175292.15 540 680 560 680 21 28
Sewanee: The University of the South 173258.49 570 680 560 650 25 33
Occidental College 168161.05 590 700 600 690 Blank Blank
Furman University 163984.13 590 690 590 690 25 31
Case Western Reserve University 162389.89 580 690 620 720 26 31
University of Rochester 160623.86 600 700 630 720 27 31
Wake Forest University 153588.39 610 700 630 710 27 31
Centre College 148308.18 570 690 570 650 26 30
Trinity College 146802.14 600 690 610 690 26 29
Rhodes College 143658.51 580 680 580 680 25 30
Bucknell University 141979.6 600 690 630 710 27 31
Rhode Island School of Design 141382.19 540 650 560 670 Blank Blank
Texas Christian University 138146.4 530 620 530 640 23 28
Lehigh University 137249.53 600 640 680 710 Blank Blank
The College of Wooster 134053.08 540 680 550 650 23 29
Hendrix College 133621.76 570 690 550 660 25 31
Northwestern University 123309.43 650 740 670 760 29 33
Tufts University 122532.84 670 750 670 740 30 33
Kalamazoo College 113686.63 610 730 590 690 26 31
Johns Hopkins University 112699.12 630 730 650 760 28 33
Brandeis University 108937.12 630 730 630 730 27 32
Transylvania University 108833.48 550 650 509 605 23 29
Southern Methodist University 108733.1 560 660 570 670 25 29
Wheaton College 108153.77 630 720 610 700 27 31
Boston College 105612.8 610 710 630 720 28 31
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 104626.02 600 690 650 730 25 29
Connecticut College 102166.14 620 720 610 700 25 29
Dickinson College 101629.99 600 690 590 680 27 30
Kenyon College 99394.33 630 730 610 690 28 32
Wofford College 99060.93 540 650 550 650 23 28
Gettysburg College 96896.75 610 690 610 670 Blank Blank
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 96272.79 560 680 630 710 27 31
Austin College 92053.43 560 670 560 660 23 28
Willamette University 91998.89 570 690 550 660 25 29
University of Southern California 91772.48 620 720 650 740 28 32
Carnegie Mellon University 91761.92 610 710 680 780 28 32
Pitzer College 86422.42 580 680 560 650 Blank Blank
St. Olaf College 85767.5 600 720 600 700 26 31
Worcester Polytechnic Institute 85090.21 560 670 630 710 25 31
Tulane University of Louisiana 84903.8 600 690 590 680 27 31
Millsaps College 83051.26 550 670 540 650 23 29
Illinois Wesleyan University 81724.79 540 680 590 690 26 30
Beloit College 80670.68 620 710 590 670 25 29
University of Puget Sound 80625.63 570 690 550 660 25 30
Ohio Wesleyan University 80538.06 530 650 540 650 24 29
Skidmore College 77803.08 580 680 580 670 25 29
Ursinus College 76289.87 550 660 560 660 22 29
Loyola University New Orleans 75497.52 550 690 530 630 23 28
Goucher College 75244.1 540 670 510 620 23 28
Barnard College 73105.96 640 740 620 700 28 31
Clark University 71632.56 553 660 543 650 24 28
Marlboro College 70910.18 580 680 510 650 24 30
Santa Clara University 69049.25 550 650 560 670 24 29
Pepperdine University 68819.7 550 670 560 680 Blank Blank
University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus 66286.37 560 660 570 660 24 29
Cornell College 63865.79 540 680 530 650 24 29
Georgetown University 63050.47 650 750 650 740 29 33
Allegheny College 61829.67 560 660 555 650 24 28
Baylor University 61391.84 550 650 560 660 23 28
Bard College at Simon's Rock 59778.72 620 730 535 680 24 29
Coe College 58361.12 528 633 570 673 23 28
William Jewell College 58175.32 530 650 480 630 22 28
Stonehill College 56364.73 540 630 550 640 24 27
Babson College 56243.03 560 640 590 680 25 29
Saint Louis University-Main Campus 53082.62 540 650 540 670 24 29
Judson College 49961.62 570 590 520 640 19 25
Westmont College 49610.64 560 650 550 650 23 28
Muhlenberg College 49157.92 550 650 560 660 24 29
Knox College 47707.92 610 710 580 670 27 31
George Washington University 46228.05 590 690 600 690 Blank Blank
Syracuse University 45628.23 540 650 570 680 24 29
Hope College 45195.58 530 650 540 650 23 29
Fairfield University 44473.75 530 620 550 640 23 28
New York University 43881.42 620 710 620 720 28 31
Lake Forest College 42300.28 560 660 540 660 24 29
Juniata College 41308.95 530 640 540 640 Blank Blank
University of Miami 40160.2 580 680 600 690 27 31
Creighton University 38296.09 530 640 550 660 24 30
Rochester Institute of Technology 38198 530 630 560 670 24 29
Illinois Institute of Technology 37843.75 543 670 620 710 25 30
Bentley College 37179.84 550 630 600 680 24 28
Warren Wilson College 36964.27 540 670 500 610 Blank Blank
Chapman University 34980.07 552 665 553 669 25 29
Bethel College 33914.19 570 700 540 680 21 28
Bradley University 33898.44 530 610 510 640 23 27
Ithaca College 30885.33 530 630 540 630 23 28
Thomas Aquinas College 30170.13 628 733 570 660 25 29
Boston University 29720.1 580 680 600 690 25 29
American University 29683.95 590 690 580 670 25 30
Concordia College at Moorhead 28045.35 530 660 530 670 22 27
Whitworth University 27768.72 550 650 560 650 25 29
Hampshire College 27681.62 610 700 540 660 26 29
North Central College 27569.41 545 670 510 650 22 27
University of San Diego 27307.79 530 630 550 650 24 28
Northland College 26862.78 540 620 460 630 21 28
Stevens Institute of Technology 26692.7 550 650 620 710 24 27
Villanova University 26620.07 580 680 610 700 27 31
Marquette University 26153.7 540 630 550 660 24 29
Loyola College in Maryland 26016.55 560 650 560 660 24 29
Providence College 25699.26 530 630 540 640 23 28
Northeastern University 24964.68 570 660 600 680 25 29
Drexel University 24739.83 530 630 560 670 23 28
Fordham University 24732.97 570 670 560 660 25 29
Mercer University 24168.13 530 640 540 630 23 28
University of Portland 22146.71 530 640 540 640 Blank Blank
Calvin College 21390.02 530 650 540 650 23 28
Maryland Institute College of Art 21314.93 530 660 500 620 Blank Blank
University of Denver 20076.34 530 640 540 640 23 28
Loyola University Chicago 19663.17 540 640 520 640 23 28
Brigham Young University 19470.72 550 670 570 680 25 30
Gonzaga University 18751.9 530 650 550 650 23 29
Gordon College 17762.79 530 650 520 630 22 28
Bennington College 17728.58 580 700 540 630 24 30
Emerson College 17005.96 590 680 550 650 25 29
Hofstra University 16596.84 530 620 550 630 22 26
Xavier University 16263.78 530 630 540 645 23 29
Covenant College 16032.41 530 660 500 620 21 28
Saint Joseph's University 15944.12 530 620 540 630 23 28
University of Dallas 15340.67 550 680 520 650 24 29
Drury University 13610.89 530 640 522 650 23 28
Wagner College 12860.53 530 640 540 650 24 28
College of Santa Fe 12308.99 540 640 470 590 21 27
Elon University 12271.17 560 650 570 660 24 28
Franciscan University of Steubenville 11051.87 540 660 520 640 22 28
Aquinas College 10998.46 560 660 460 600 18 25
Belmont University 10933.82 540 630 530 630 23 28
Roosevelt University 9069.14 550 663 480 620 19 25
Bryan College 5489.45 530 670 498 610 21 27
Cedarville University 5172.64 540 660 530 650 23 29
Hope International University 4974.7 550 560 540 550 21 22
Iona College 4802.78 530 640 550 660 Blank Blank
Albany College of Pharmacy 4736.25 530 630 570 660 24 30
University of Detroit Mercy 3738.44 550 630 500 630 20 25
Hebrew Theological College 3691.78 530 630 575 640 Blank Blank
Northwestern College 3674.93 530 630 500 620 21 27
Webster University 3173.27 530 650 500 610 21 28
Ave Maria University 1349.81 530 660 498 620 22 28
Calvary Bible College and Theological Seminary 519.71 530 620 410 600 20 25</p>

<p>^endowment, SATs, graduation rates are interrelated</p>

<p>Yes, there is a correlation. That does not suggest causation. </p>

<p>For example, if I raise the endowment of MIT, will the SAT scores and graduation rates go up?</p>

<p>I suspect graduation rates would go up, as a larger endowment allows more hand-holding.</p>

<p>I think Washington Monthly is the worst ranking I've ever seen. why is getting a ph.d a determinant of success over getting a difficult corporate job or going to med school? Why does "ROTC" rank matter. Total garbage.</p>

<p>
[quote]
why is getting a ph.d a determinant of success over getting a difficult corporate job or going to med school?

[/quote]
I don't think that's the right question. When students are able to gain admission to PhD programs, it's an indication that their undergrad schools are teaching at a level that supports admission to such programs; it's not proof of anything. The best we have are various indicators that undergrad schools are doing a good job of preparing their students for various future endeavors. Those interested in getting a difficult corporate job with a BA/BS don't care much about future PhD numbers, and vice versa. That's why these one-size-fits-none rankings are such nonsense for most applicants.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think Washington Monthly is the worst ranking I've ever seen. why is getting a ph.d a determinant of success over getting a difficult corporate job or going to med school? Why does "ROTC" rank matter. Total garbage.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wow. I'm quite impressed with the quality of the education you received at Dartmouth. </p>

<p>You are clearly able to read short articles, understand basic assumptions to a particular analytical approach, and clearly digest the broader motivation behind such an exercise.</p>

<p>"The Washington Monthly is nothing more than an asinine effort to be in the ranking business. The underlying data lacks foundation and seems to be riddled by mistakes."</p>

<p>Substitute USNEWS for Washington Monthly. I'm just a common schmuck and in an afternoon, I could improve their methodology a lot. the again, the more accurate resuts wouldn't sell as many issues of the magazine.</p>