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<p>Of course, even that is far from the OP’s situation, which apparently involves Brown, McGill, and majoring in math. By not naming these specifics, the OP (possibly unintentionally) ■■■■■■■ up a prestige war.</p>
<p>Well…</p>
<p>I wouldn’t want to send my own kid to Purdue. Personal prejudice, I admit, but it’s one of those schools I just don’t like. </p>
<p>Being more rational…or at least trying to be…</p>
<p>What 17 or 18 year old kid is really certain he wants to go into engineering? If he’s positive then maybe Purdue is an option. If there’s any chance he’ll change his mind, then IMO it’s not a great choice. It’s just not that strong in other areas. </p>
<p>CalTech is great in engineering, but it’s also good in all things math and sciency. MIT is just a truly excellent school across the board. I’m an attorney and have known a fair number of attorneys who are MIT grads. Many of them started out as engineering majors and ended up majoring in political science–which is really strong at MIT. Business is also very strong at MIT. Economics, philosophy, etc. are all strong there. MIT gives you other options. </p>
<p>Now, again, maybe the young man is 100% sure he wants to be an engineer and maybe he will become one. But, anecdotal evidence suggests that engineering is one of those majors lots of people switch out of. Sometimes that’s because they can’t hack it–it’s tough. But sometimes it turns out that it really isn’t what students thought it was going to be.</p>
<p>Marciemi,</p>
<p>Some considerations for small class size vs large class size (purdue vs MIT/CT</p>
<p>4 year graduation rates
class size for Meche= 1000/4yrs~250/yr ?? at Purdue
cohort cohesiveness
class teams
lab partners
different profs & TA’s for the same class.</p>
<p>intended outcomes.
a minority of CMU ME’s actually took ME jobs on graduation.</p>
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<p>One can say the same thing about most incoming freshmen regardless of major. There are a minority, however, who were certain of what they wanted to major in during high school…or even earlier. Knew dozens who were like that in my high school and several in my own family…including one family with 4 older cousins who all knew they wanted to be engineers from childhood onward and all ended up graduating as engineering majors…including the UMass and Caltech EE majors. </p>
<p>Despite my acknowledgement of the above points…your point is well taken and I agree with your misgivings as many incoming freshmen will probably change their majors at least once during their undergrad careers. </p>
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<p>While MIT has excellent non-STEM majors like the ones you named above along with Linguistics… they are often heavily quantitatively oriented and the core curriculum is highly quantitative compared to ones at peer non-Engineering/STEM centered universities like HYPS. In the case of political science…this could actually pose problems for a student who prefers a qualitative approach or feels there’s an overemphasis on quantitative methods in the department. </p>
<p>This very issue is one reason why friends who taught poli-sci at schools with heavily quant-oriented poli-sci departments dissuaded several prospective grad students and some undergrads who are qualitatively oriented or disagree with those departments’ emphasis on quant methods from applying to those schools. </p>
<p>In fact, I had a PM discussion with an undergrad at one such school who had to switch out of poli-sci because his school’s department was quantitative methods/rational choice uber alles…an approach he strongly disagreed with…and his mathematical proficiency wasn’t an issue. Just a strong methodological/philosophical disagreement which precluded him from continuing as a major in that department.</p>
<p>Unless that school is one of HYPS, don’t pay that much. I wouldn’t even pay that much for HYPS, but that’s me.</p>
<p>Anyone find it ironic that the author of the “bible” thad annasdad keeps bowing to went to Williams undergrad, got his Ph.D. from Princeton and teaches at Northwestern? I guess he doesnt practice what he preaches. So much for the value of Podunk U to him :rolleyes: Then again, he was a middle school and ESL teacher for a while after majoring in economics at Williams before going back to grad school. Have to wonder what he felt was the “value” of his undergrad experience.</p>
<p>If one looks at his book, all he is espousing is the benefit of a smaller college (prefereably LAC or non research focused institution) in learning communication skills, learning critical thinking, building character, and “preparing for citizenship”. The increased acccess of faculty at smaller LACs/ non research institutions over big universities is a big “duh”. As one reviewer said, the book is full of obvious “tips” and trite statements. And the NSSE is just a survey-- limited by who happens to fill it in and send it back. Surveys are commonly very limited in their utility as “research” instruments.</p>
<p>My son didn’t visit Caltech or CMU until after accepted. Actually, missed Caltech’s accepted student weekend but son visited classes for 2 days. Like your S2, he too skipped lectures.</p>
<p>It is a personal decision to pay the price. The worm spoke of MIT from a young age, and I promised if he got in, I’d find a way to pay. Neither of us thought of Caltech until he was in HS. It turned out to be most affordable, and the smaller size, the House system, was the better fit for him for UG. He also earned @ $5-11,000 each summer.</p>
<p>While I’d love to have the tuition money still sitting in my bank account, I have NO regrets that the worm had the opportunity to be surrounded by a large peer group. I was in Honors program at a state flagship, and it just wasn’t the same experience.</p>
<p>^So he has his stand, what is yours? Why do you care so much about his opinion? If he is “wrong” according to you, then…? Everybody is free to express what they believe in (or lie about it) and pursue whatever opportunity they wish. Why we care so much? Believe in your own, pursue your own.</p>
<p>Don’t know who you are being so congfrontational with Miami, but I’ll take a stab. I agree about the benefits of smaller schools over larger universities for undergraduate education. I loved going to a LAC and got all the benefits he rattles on about. My kids went to small/mid sized schools, but I believe that they/we benefited from attending higher caliber (highly selective) schools in terms of the quality of the peers and faculty, the education and the benefits of resources both at the schools and in career advancement. Attending a large U was not for any of us. That said, my DH attended a flagship U and he turned out pretty well, IMO.</p>
<p>There are two separate issues here. One is what a student wants to get out of a college experience, and what they want to pay for it. And whether they can get what they want at Podunk U or if they should go to a better school. I compare it to the 4 different levels of academic rigor at my kids HS. Yes, you can take Biology, but there are 4 levels of classes (prep, academic, Honors or AP). The stronger student will get far more out of the AP level bio class than the prep bio class. If students have the thirst for learning they should take the most challenging classes, at the more challenging colleges/universities. I am all for individualized attention , maximum learning and assistance with career development. If that can be gotten in the Honors program of a larger U, great, as it probably models what is offered at smaller colleges/LACs/schools focused on undergraduate learning. Does that answer your brusque, hostile sounding questions?</p>
<p>“While I’d love to have the tuition money still sitting in my bank account”</p>
<p>-Another example of how personal everybody’s decision is.
For some it is not a question about $$ in bank account, the question is about paying for Grad / Med / Law or any other school after UG. Many parents have limited resources and if they pay huge tuitions for UG, they do not feel like paying for the next one. On the other hand, if a kid made mature decision to go to UG on Merit awards, some parents make decision to pay for Grad / Med / Law to some degree in appreciation for hard work and consideration on a child sode. At least I and few others on CC feel this way. It also opens door for wider selection of Grad. Schools as price tag is not considered at this point. At least, that is what I told my D. Took a bit of time to convince her not to compare tuitions at various Med. Schools, but rather choose based on other important criteria.</p>
<p>jym626,
I am saying that nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Everybody is choosing the way they personally want to. There is no reason to say that some people are incorrect. Everybody is correct for their own sake.
General assumptions are not applicable at all. Good example of such is your statement:
“The stronger student will get far more out of the AP level bio class than the prep bio class” -At what school? D’s private prep. HS did not like to call classes “AP”, as a result she had very few. Later in college she discovered that her regular Chem. class prepared her much better than others in AP classes that came from various HS’s, which resulted in her being hand picked by prof to be his SI, the job that lasted 3 years.<br>
The general assumptions about all UG’s, all Honors colleges, all HS’s…etc. are simply not applicable. And even opportunities for different caliber students at the same UG, Grad. and any other place are not the same at all. The best is to decide using your own criteria and your own personal circumstances.</p>
<p>Which is exactly why annasdads constantly saying that a podunk school is as good as a top tier school is ridiculous, miami. Yes a student will get what they choose out of a school, and yes there are great students at dipwad schools and slackers at top schools, but the constant badgering by annasdad that the “research” he presents meants that a dipwad school is on par with a top tier school is just, well, ridiculous.</p>
<p>Where did anyone say someone was “incorrect”?</p>
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<p>I have never quite understood “disliking” a school unless you attended that school and had a negative experience. I mean there are many, many schools that would not be a good fit for either of my kids, but I can’t say that I dislike those schools.</p>
<p>FWIW - my Dad had a 50 year career in engineering including management and eventually starting up his own very successful business. He always thought highly of the Purdue grads.</p>
<p>If all schools are all the same, why would Anna go to a magnet boarding school, why not just go to their local high school and get as much as she wants to get out of it? Could it be the boarding school has better facilities, better teachers and more involved parents who would donate and volunteer at the school? Could those factors make a better learning environment? My understanding is that those students were tested to make sure they are of certain calibre. Could that also allow teachers to teach at a higher level and move at a faster pace?</p>
<p>^^^Touche^^^</p>
<p>Most of this discussion is moot, since most kids aren’t going to get into the Ivys or Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, etc. Heck, they’ll be lucky to get into Berkeley, UCLA, or Michigan, even Cal Poly SLO. Is there a disadvantage to going to Cal State Northridge vs USC, Harvey Mudd or Cal Poly Pomona? That’s really more the issue. If you can’t afford $240,000 for a private college, then you should think about it very, very carefully, because your student could spend his/her whole working life paying that off.
I saw a graph projecting college costs into the future, when a college education may cost more like $500,000 if rates continue to rise at current rates. That’s scary.</p>
<p>
And this supports the assertions of many posting here that if you go to a top school where the students that met criteria for admission were most likely already a top academic group, then even the coursework designed for this population may outshine that offered elsewhere.</p>
<p>Still not seeng where you think someone said anything about what/who is “right” or “wrong”.</p>
<p>And n of 1 examples are just that. We can all cite our individual examples. Group data is what is generally used when making statistical comparisons.</p>
<p>Some parents blindly think their kids’ school choices are “best”, whether elementary, HS, or college, whether public or private, always “oh, it’s wonderful!”. These same schools may have middling achievement test scores, rundown facilities, money or disciplinary problems, etc. A little self-delusion always help those parents vested in the overall superiority of their offspring.</p>
<p>Note that engineering salaries for recent grads are pretty much same, whether grad comes from Purdue or MIT. There isn’t much snobbery among engineers, LOL. It’s probably same for medical or vet school, though certainly not for law and business school grads - where pedigree is keenly important and 3rd tier degrees are almost meaningless to employers. There’s a slight bump for an Ivy M. ARch architecture grad, vs regional or public U M. Arch grad, and perhaps a more likely chance of an interview.</p>
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<p>You are citing three sources. One is a personal essay. One is a popular book. There is no methodology to challenge, as far as I can tell. Posters have pointed out the flaws in the arguments you are basing on selected passages from these writings, but you just ignore those posts. The third source, as jym writes:</p>
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<p>If this survey were of any significance I think there would probably be articles about it in The Journal of Higher Education, etc. Maybe there are, but I can’t find them. I was hoping someone else might post links to some serious discussion of the survey.</p>
<p>Some things you post are true. A motivated student can find a way to get a good education. Some things are not: “elite” schools don’t ever offer more educational opportunities. I think Blossom, in #202, refuted that pretty conclusively. And what I particularly liked about that post is that it shows any student, a potential art history professor or a future banker or MD or JD or engineer, taking an art history course will have a substantially different experience at Yale or Williams compared to UConn. Whether the “elite” education is worth $100,000 more is open to debate. Mini has written some very interesting posts about this previously. You could visit an awful lot of museums with that amount of money in your pocket. An interesting question might be: how do graduate school admissions compare for art history majors at Yale, Williams, and UConn?</p>
<p>I don’t know what it is called when there is a statement that can’t be proved or disproved. But it seems your statement thatThere is simply NO WAY that ANY “elite” university is worth $100k more than a flagship public university is such a statement. I don’t see how this statement can ever be more than your opinion.</p>