Penn CAS vs. Berkeley

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

<p>Hey guys, </p>

<p>Iv been lucky enough to get places at both these schools. I was just wondering which (from an American perspective- I am from England) would be the best choice for me. (I also got places at Duke, U Chicago and wait-list at Harvard)</p>

<p>I am interested in international relations/politics or biomedical research and want to take classes in Arabic/Farsi. Ultimately I want to go to grad school- perhaps the Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton. </p>

<p>Any advice would be appreciated</p>

<p>p.s I am leaning towards Penn but my dad hasn't heard of it and so really wants me to go to Berkeley (I see a huge fight coming)</p>

<p>Thank you</p>

2

<p>Congratulations on your acceptances. Those are all great schools.</p>

<p>Regarding Penn vs Berkeley, academically the schools are roughly balanced, though overall Berkeley leads Penn by a small but clear margin in academic excellence (in the social and natural sciences, B has a big lead; in the professions and humanities, P has a mid-size lead). </p>

<p>With respect to biomedical research however Penn has a dominating advantage - the health sciences complex at Penn is one of the 3 or 4 best in the nation. Penn has medical, dental, veterinary and nursing schools which are all ranked in the top 5. Only Johns Hopkins, Harvard and UCSF have equivalent capabilities. Furthermore, unlike those institutions, at Penn you can - as an undergrad - take courses and do research at those schools [though the med school would be hard given their curriculum]. Penn actively promotes advanced undergrad research as well.</p>

<p>For intl relations/politics, both schools are strong. I'm not as well versed in Bekeley's offerings in this regard, but I know Penn is very strong. Penn's ties to local and state government (the governor, mayor and many local law firm partners and judges all have Penn degrees) means your ability to get involved in politics is relatively easy. </p>

<p>And finally, Penn is closer to the UK than California, though Berkeley's weather is much better. Check out the social scenes at each school if you can. Penn is large, though Berkeley is immense (10,000 undergrads at Penn vs 25,000 at Berkeley). Penn is big city vs Berkeley which is small town-ish (though it's in the Bay Area, which is the same size as the Philly metro area, and wealthier too). </p>

<p>Good luck with your choice.</p>

3

<p>Whoa; in terms of undergrad selectivity and excellence, Penn destroys Berkeley. Penn is an Ivy League school, consistently ranks among the the top 10 universities in the country, and is simply considered among the best.</p>

<p>Berkeley is fantastic for grad school, but not undergrad.</p>

<p>Explain it to your father this way: Penn is part of the Oxbridge of America; Berkeley is not.</p>

4

<p>
[QUOTE]
p.s I am leaning towards Penn but my dad hasn't heard of it and so really wants me to go to Berkeley (I see a huge fight coming)

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>...............eek, if your dad is one of those prestige hoes, then just show him the rankings and tell him what the ivy league is. pretty simple.</p>

<p>in terms of undergraduate experience, no question, definitely go with upenn.</p>

5

<p>Haha muerteapablo - easy killer. Cardinaldreams, you have a great choice to make, and these are two fantastic schools. I think, rather than going by what muerteapablo suggests, which is to let rankings or status strongly come into your decision initially, think about what you want. UPenn is a great school, and if you need to play the status card later to convince your dad, do it, but there's a lot more to keep in mind when you make your decision.</p>

<p>(Quick note, the status card could easily be played in either direction. Don't forget - especially internationally - Berkeley has an absolutely outstanding reputation, even if it is derived primarily from it's graduate schools. In terms of international prestige, Berkeley certainly has a great rep.)</p>

<p>First, where do you want to be? The difference between Phila and San Francisco is immense. Have you visited Philly? While the city is getting better, it has kind of a gritty element to it (especially West Philly), and that's not for everyone. </p>

<p>In terms of academics, these are both great schools. Unlike what muertepablo says, I don't think Penn "destroys" Berkeley. With a much smaller class size and less seats to fill, Penn's SAT averages and other numbers are higher, but Berkeley isn't exactly chopped liver here. You're gonna find loads of smart kids at both these schools. Frankly, I think it's harsh to make those sorts of statements about any two great schools. Berkeley is bigger, and you'll probably have to be more proactive about getting the classes you want, not getting lost in the crowd, etc. A great resume from Berkeley, though, will be well-received anywhere. </p>

<p>Structurally, UPenn is significantly smaller and offers good interdisciplinary opportunities, so you can take classes in Wharton, Communications, etc. Penn is also great for biomed. At the same time, for many of the social science classes, Berkeley offers outstanding opportunties once you get past the intro classes. While Penn is very good (in the top 10-15 or so) for subjects such as History, sociology, poli sci, economics, etc., Berkeley consistently boasts one of the top handful of departments in each of these subjects. Each of these subjects also speak strongly to your academic interests. </p>

<p>I did my grad work at Penn, and I enjoyed it. If given the shot at Berkeley, though, I probably would've headed out west. I've heard a lot of rave reviews about San Francisco, and I never felt particularly attached to Philly. The difference between the coasts and the feel of the schools is significant, so I'd definitely recommend visiting if at all possible. You really can't go wrong either way, but please don't assume this is as easy a choice as muerteapablo would have you believe.</p>

6

<p>I typed this for another student in a similar predicament, so I give myself permission to plagarize myself...</p>

<p>
[quote]
I was a double-major in IR and East Asian Studies at Penn's CAS. Thanks to Penn's help (or in some cases merely the strength of its reputation) I had the opportunity of summer jobs/internships in Seoul, Singapore, and Beijing. I'm now working in South Asia for one of the Indian industrial houses (they have an international recruit program that only recruits from the Ivies--another Penn perk ) edit: you could say i've been trotting around the British Empire ;)</p>

<p>Like you, I am very much into IR, and Penn was a phenomenal experience in too many ways to count...but I'll just focus on IR for now (feel free to PM me about other Penn questions).</p>

<p>Penn is not known as an IR powerhouse like Georgetown SFS, Stanford, etc., but that doesn't mean it isn't a top-notch experience. It simply doesn't have a graduate program or separate school (the plus side of this is that the IR program's core and only purpose is to serve undergraduates).</p>

<p>The program itself is rigorous. The major is not open; that is to say there is an application process. There is a set of prerequisite courses you must take and achieve a certain GPA in order to be considered, and there is an interview as well. It is also one of the few majors at Penn that requires both honors and non-honors students to complete a 2-semesters long senior thesis (mine was an 83 pager on game theoretical analysis of US-North Korea cooperation prospects... surprising conclusion: John Bolton was right!).</p>

<p>Another plus for Penn over comparable schools is the "One University" policy that allows and encourages undergraduates to take classes in the other 3 undergrad schools and even some of the grad schools. Penn IR benefits greatly from this. As an undergrad, you can take Penn Law classes of great relevance--where else can an undergrad IR major take a course on China and International Law by this guy (Penn Law Faculty: Jacques deLisle, expert on Comparative Law, International Law, Chinese Law and Politics) or international human rights law by this guy ( Penn Law Faculty: William W. Burke-White )? Another area of great synergy is in the Wharton school, where you can take courses on international finance and international business (which only a fool would think have no role to play in the study of IR). Penn also has a preeminent military historian (Arthur Waldron) with great connections and a love of engaging undergrads (too often at our elite schools, the role of militaries is kept at arms-length).</p>

<p>In short, the breadth available to Penn IR undergrads is unparalleled in schools of its class.</p>

<p>The results speak for themselves: Penn IR students regularly win Fulbrights/Truman/Marshall etc; we had an IR major won a Rhodes a few years back (and a Huntsman kid won a Rhodes last year) (but as a Brit you're probably not looking for a Rhodes....). Penn IR students get job offers in the Foreign Service, military, and intelligence sectors, the most coveted companies like Goldman Sachs and McKinsey (my own company accepted 3% of its applicants this year, and another Penn IR major was among them), and gain admission to the preeminent grad schools in IR, law, business...</p>

<p>The faculty and staff of the IR program are great. One professor is a Pulitzer Prize winner and it shows in his lectures. Another was just published in 'Foreign Policy' magazine. I know the head of the department by first name. I've gone out for beers with the guy, and we still keep in touch.</p>

<p>Phew. I'm spent. PM me with any questions you may have.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Addenda: You can show your dad this UK-based Times Higher Education ranking that has Penn in the world's top 20 THES</a> - QS World University Rankings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>And Penn's biomedical edge over Berkeley is substantial, at least at the undergrad level</p>

<p>Penn is great in regional studies in general (it was one of the first universities to systematically pursue them). A Modern Middle East Studies major just won a prestigious fellowship that will have her working under Hillary in the State Department. A Penn professor is also the current head of MESA.</p>

<p>You can PM me for any questions, I'm happy to help enlighten your dad.</p>

7

<p>this is exactly my problem too.</p>

<p>my debate is between uchicago, upenn CAS, and Berkley Engineering</p>

8

<p>lol @ “your dad is one of those prestige hoes”</p>

<p>Dude, Berkeley has much more recognition then Penn outside of the U.S.</p>

9

<p>^Berkeley is recognized for it’s GRAD school. It’s undergrad program is much weaker than penn’s. 1/3 of my school gets into Berkeley each year with SAT’s around 2000, it’s unbelievably easy. </p>

<p>Also, if you want to go to a prestigious grad school (especially in the United States), going to an Ivy League looks much better on your application than a public school. Penn is currently ranked 6, Berkeley 21</p>

<p>Finally, most people who go to Berkeley are from California and can go there with a tuition of under 10,000. However, you’re from out of state so you don’t get that benefit. I see very little incentive for you.</p>

<p>I have friends here from some top UK prep schools (eton, cheltenham) that chose Penn over HYPS (although it was usually for Wharton) so I don’t think international recognition is the issue here.</p>

10

<p>Really? Your UK friends chose UPenn over HYPS? How often was this choice WHARTON over HYPS? I can’t see many kids choosing Penn CAS over HYPS for College.</p>

11

<p>

</p>

<p>It does happen. The kid in the freshman dorm next to mine picked Penn CAS over Harvard. I know several people who go to Penn CAS over Stanford as well. </p>

<p>I am well aware that they are in the minority, but it happens more than you think.</p>

<p>Penn CAS has a LOT going for it–they’re simply miserable at marketing themselves.</p>

12

<p>I’d also add that Penn has a lower student-faculty ratio, so you will have an easier time getting to know a faculty member well enough to give you a solid recommendation for grad school.</p>

13

<p>While I haven’t heard of people choosing Penn over HYP, I have met a bunch of kids who came here over Stanford. And a million who also got into Brown, Columbia and Cornell. Fewer to Dartmouth, which is interesting.</p>

14

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</p>

<p>I’m not gonna lie, it was usually for Wharton. I don’t know as many CAS students, but I don’t think it would make much sense to choose CAS over HYP since CAS offers the same things but is considered less prestigious. </p>

<p>Wharton, on the other hand, is a completely different story…Wharton’s yield (though I’m not sure how accurate this is) is slightly below Harvard’s but higher than YPS. </p>

<p>As for turning down Stanford for CAS, there are definitely people in that group.</p>

15

<p>Well I’m biased as I’m at Berkeley but I will say that the two are fairly different. If you want to go to a RESEARCH university and have access to ground breaking research in a variety of different fields go to Berkeley. If you don’t really care about cutting edge research you might as well go to Penn. Berkeley blows Penn out of the water in all the physical and biological sciences (and actually almost everything at the research level).</p>

<p>If you’re into rankings look at this [QS</a> Top Universities: University rankings in Life Sciences and Biomedicine](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/subject_rankings/life_sciences_biomedicine/]QS”>http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/subject_rankings/life_sciences_biomedicine/)</p>

<p>Life Sciences and Biomed
1 HARVARD University United States 100.0
2 University of CAMBRIDGE United Kingdom 87.1
3 JOHNS HOPKINS University United States 84.7
4 University of California, BERKELEY United States 83.7
5 University of OXFORD United Kingdom 81.4
6 STANFORD University United States 80.3
7 YALE University United States 76.4
8 MASSACHUSETTS Institute of Technology (M… United States 75.7
9 University of CALIFORNIA, San Diego United States 69.4
10 MCGILL University Canada 68.0
11= IMPERIAL College London United Kingdom 65.4
11= University of CALIFORNIA, Los Angeles (U… United States 65.4
13 University of TORONTO Canada 64.1
14 University of BRITISH COLUMBIA Canada 61.8
15 University of TOKYO Japan 60.5
16 CALIFORNIA Institute of Technology (Calt… United States 59.5
17 National University of SINGAPORE(NUS) Singapore 58.7
18 CORNELL University United States 57.6
19 PEKING University China 56.9
20 COLUMBIA University United States 56.3</p>

<p>Natural Sciences [QS</a> Top Universities: University rankings in the Natural Sciences](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/subject_rankings/natural_sciences/]QS”>http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/subject_rankings/natural_sciences/)
1 MASSACHUSETTS Institute of Technology (M… United States 100.0
2 University of California, BERKELEY United States 99.5
3 University of CAMBRIDGE United Kingdom 98.3
4 HARVARD University United States 96.1
5 University of OXFORD United Kingdom 92.3
6 PRINCETON University United States 91.1
7 CALIFORNIA Institute of Technology (Calt… United States 90.7
8 STANFORD University United States 88.0
9 University of TORONTO Canada 79.2
10 University of TOKYO Japan 77.2
11 CORNELL University United States 76.8
12 University of CHICAGO United States 75.2
13 KYOTO University Japan 74.4
14 IMPERIAL College London United Kingdom 74.3
15 ETH Zurich (Swiss Federal Institute of T… Switzerland 73.7
16 PEKING University China 73.0
17 YALE University United States 72.1
18 University of CALIFORNIA, Los Angeles (U… United States 72.0
19 </p>

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<p>We’re talking about undergrad here, biomech. None of these rankings have any bearing on that. Notice that Dartmouth and Brown don’t show up at all in ARWU, but are obviously much more prestigious - for undergrad - than Berkeley, as well.</p>

<p>Yes, Berkeley is great for your PhD or MA, and possibly your engineering degree - but not if you want to go somewhere for undergrad.</p>

17

<p>Hey nice grad school statistics there biomech…too bad they are completely irrelevant to this discussion</p>

<p>Berkeley is not blowing anyone out of the water at the undergrad level</p>

18

<p>No, those aren’t rankings of graduate schools. Those are rankings of research and faculty excellence (which unfortunately graduate students tend to take advantage of more than undergraduates). I used that particular ranking as it was already provided to show that penn was better than berkeley.</p>

<p>Also, I do take issue with the idea that there is somehow a huge difference. I’m a freshman at berkeley and I’m taking two graduate courses in biology, doing research with professors the same as grad students would and enjoying going to the colloquia that only a large research university can offer. Penn’s a decent research university but not on the same scale as stanford, harvard and berkeley (which are basically the big research universities in the US). This allows you to do research and get on papers so you can get into grad school and gain more experience. As an example, in Harvard’s biology graduate program there are more Cal grads than any other school including Harvard. Why? Because people who make the most of the resources berkeley offers are truly able to thrive particularly if you’re thinking of going into the sciences. Berkeley simply has better, more innovative professors in these fields. While that might not make them better teachers it does mean you can learn more from them if you are willing to make an effort and work in their lab or go to office hours.</p>

<p>Dartmouth and Brown are both basically liberal arts colleges that do some research. My personal advice to the OP would be as follows. If you feel you’re going to be able to take advantage of the things Berkeley offers that are unique (such as a much larger research effort and more professors in various sub fields) or you’re advanced enough to enroll in grad classes go to Berkeley. I don’t think Berkeley is the best place to go if you’re likely to get lost in the fray and you aren’t willing to be your own advocate.</p>

19

<p>Okay defintiely Berkely - Don’t get caught up in the “glory” of the “Ivy-League” Label… Berkley > UPENN - especially for your intended majors…</p>

20

<p>I would not trust Acceptd opinion–check out his posts. He would rather go to university of Michigan and Georgetown over Penn, and thinks Columbia is “much more prestigious”.</p>

<p>Clearly a penn reject</p>

<p>As for the “big difference” between Berkeley’s undergrad and graduate school–many of Berkeley’s grad schools are ranked top 3, Berkeley’s undergrad is ranked in the the 20s…so yes, there is a big difference</p>

<p>IF berkeley’s undergrad program was as good as its grad schools, then people would be turning down Harvard, Yale, and Princeton for Berkeley. I’m from California and trust me, that does not happen.</p>