Penn or Duke?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I'm sorry for the sort of long post, but I really need help.</p>

<p>I posted a similar topic to this 2 weeks ago, but now it's specific to me.</p>

<p>I want to study biomedical engineering (or aerospace) and business (or economics). I'm more interested in the engineering side rather than the business side.</p>

<p>I need to choose whether I want to apply early to Penn M&T (probably won't get accepted, but then be accepted to engineering) or to Duke. There's a few things I have to consider career-wise and finance-wise, and I'd appreciate guidance. </p>

<p>Penn attracts me because of the very slight chance of M&T, but also because I can still double degree in economics from the college ad take classes at Wharton. In terms of atmosphere, I'm more of a fan of the city life. What makes me hesitate me about choosing Penn is that if I decide I don't want to do biomedical, none of the other engineering programs at Penn are as strong.</p>

<p>Duke interests me because it gives me flexibility in terms of my engineering degree (aerospace) while still allowing me to study economics. Duke is also the top biomedical engineering program (with JHU), although I'm not sure how much better it is than Penn. Duke's also a lot more laid back, I've heard, and they have good sports.</p>

<p>Financially, the calculator says Penn would give me about $8000 more per year. My family earns about $160K (and I have a sibling), but no savings due to my dad losing his job (not his fault in 2006). Our actual EFC is probably $14000 maximum from our pockets, but even Penn calculates it to be $27000. Not a big deal in terms of loans, $14K a year, plus I'm working on some scholarships. Duke gives about $10K less in grant money, and makes me take out a $5K loan.</p>

<p>My parents keep saying apply where I want to, but they're just trying to make me happy, don't really want to be a burden.</p>

<p>The point is: are the extra loans I'd have to pay back at Duke worth it? And more generally, what should I pick?</p>

<p>In terms of likability, they're pretty equal.</p>

2

<p>A vote for Penn here. Normally you couldn’t go wrong with either, but I really can’t see taking out extra loans for Duke if you like Penn as much. </p>

<p>Penn advantages:

[ul][<em>]Located in a large city
[</em>]Better financial aid[/ul]</p>

<p>Duke advantages:

  • [li]Better athletics

<p>Neutral:

[ul][<em>]Duke BME is great, but Penn’s program is also extremely good. Both have awesome medical schools if you decide to go pre-med.
[</em>]Both have good job placement. Aside from BMEs interested in med school, the vast majority of Penn engineers wind up in business/finance/consulting jobs, and I suspect this is true at Duke as well. (Business is also the most popular destination for engineers at places like MIT and Berkeley – less surprising than it seems once you compare salaries.)
[*]Both have good social scenes.[/ul]</p>

3

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<p>“Expected Family Contribution” refers to what the college expects you to pay, not to what your family expects to pay. You seem to be saying that your EFC is $27K (as indicated by Penn’s Net Price Calculator). This sounds low for a family making $160K. At most colleges, a family earning that much typically would be expected to cover the full cost of attendance. </p>

<p>What is your family actually able and willing to pay per year? $14K? In that case, there apparently is a gap of at least $13K/year between your budget and your EFC. That is not an insignificant amount for a family with no savings. How will you cover that gap, on top of any “self help” (loans + work study) included in your aid package? </p>

<p>It sounds like you are saying you would borrow $14K/year to attend Penn ($27K-$14K=$13K just to reach your EFC, plus another $1K in loans as part of the aid package). To attend Duke, apparently you would borrow as much as $28K/year ($13K + $10K to cover the lower grant + $5K in loans included as part of your package.) </p>

<p>If I’ve understood correctly, even Penn would be a big stretch (using private loans). I’d consider Duke quite unaffordable. The average Penn student graduates with about $18K in debt, the average Duke student with about $22K. You’d be borrowing more than that annually to attend Duke, right? Or have I misunderstood?</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized]Subsidized”>http://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized]Subsidized</a> and Unsubsidized Loans | Federal Student Aid<a href=“see%20the%20chart%20showing%20maximum%20annual%20and%20total%20loan%20limits%20for%20subsidized%20and%20unsubsidized%20loans”>/url</a></p>

<p>Is there a public university in your state that offers the programs you want at costs closer to the $14K your family can afford?</p>

4

<p>Sorry, I knew what EFC meant, just used it incorrectly.</p>

<p>We blew our savings between 2006-2009 while my father was trying to start his own business since he had lost his job in 2006. Only recently have we started earning $160K and much of that has been going to pay debt. Obviously, I’m not able to fully explain this on the calculator, even though Penn still gave $33K in grant money + work study for $3300. I did my math wrong, we’d be paying ~$23K at Penn. </p>

<p>I have financial safeties, but don’t really want to go them unless something goes seriously wrong.</p>

<p>I’m also a “likely” to be accepted at Penn or Duke. Should I maybe do a gamble and apply to a place like Stanford, which is EA and gives very good aid. (I’m in Florida.)</p>

<p>And thank you for the replies, really.</p>

5

<p>Just bumping this!</p>

6

<p>ED is appropriate for applicants who have a clear favorite and who have no need to compare financial aid offers. In your case, neither of these seems to be true. So it may make sense to apply RD to both.</p>

<p>What makes you think you are “likely” for Penn or Duke? These schools are reaches for virtually all applicants. Are you a recruited athlete? If so, has either school indicated your admission is llkely, but only if you apply ED?</p>

7

<p>Under Naviance, I’m a likely and my college counselor doesn’t hand those out easily. That’s subjective, though.</p>

<p>Let’s not worry about that.</p>

<p>If I apply RD, then I lose the ED boost and they become “possible”, don’t know if it’s worth it.</p>

8

<p>I wouldn’t rely 100% on the financial aid calculators; they may be off. You can’t assume than Penn will give you $8k more than Duke as the actual amounts may differ. If it’s possible you will not be able to afford the education, then waiting for RD and comparing the aid offers may be the prudent thing to do. Having said all that, you obviously have to simply do what you think is best.</p>

<p>I chose Duke over Penn for BME and now work in a more business-centric industry. They are peer schools with comparable programs and will both offer similar opportunities inside and outside of the classroom as well as career prospects. Anybody who says one of these schools is clearly “better” than the other is misguided. I personally found Duke’s athletic scene (specifically basketball) and the sense of pride/community the tipping point for me. But I really like Penn too, and I’m sure would have been happy there as well. Being in Philly is certainly appealing (although bars in Philly are 21+ while Durham has to cater to the college crowd so lets everybody in, just can’t technically order drinks if you’re under 21), although I find Duke’s campus more beautiful and it has nicer weather and athletic facilities, which I cared about being a part of a (non-varsity) club sport.</p>

<p>In the end, it all comes down to fit. I would highly recommend visiting both. All else being equal, go with your gut on where you think you’d be happier, assuming the financial aid turns out to be similar. If you really have no preference one way or the other, then simply going with the cheaper option may make sense. Both will offer fantastic academic and social experiences, so you can’t go wrong if you’re lucky enough to be admitted. Good luck!</p>

9

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<p>I used the following quick EFC calculator to estimate your EFC:
[FinAid</a> | Calculators | Quick EFC Calculator Results](<a href=“http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/quickefc.cgi]FinAid”>http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/quickefc.cgi)</p>

<p>Assumptions:

  • the older parent is 55
  • family of 4, 1 in college
  • $3K in student income
  • $0 student assets, $0 parent assets
  • $160K/year family income
    (notice there is no place to plug in debt; there is no accounting for average income over the last N years).</p>

<p>The estimated EFC is $36,605. Income would need to be no more than $110K to lower the EFC to $23K.</p>

<p>If your parents are able and willing to contribute only $14K/year, then you have a large gap
based on your calculation for Penn ($23K), and perhaps an insurmountable gap based on my rough calculation. So it seems to me you are focusing on the wrong problem. Instead of trying to eek out an admission advantage from ED to Duke or Penn, you really ought to be focusing on identifying less selective “target” schools that either are closer in price to the $14K you can afford, or else offer enough merit aid to someone with your stats that you’ll be able to close the apparent gap between your budget and your EFC. Go ahead and apply to Penn, Duke, Stanford - or all three - but cover your risks with a balanced reach/match/safety list, and don’t get too emotionally attached to schools you may not be able to afford.</p>

10

<p>Apply to both schools RD. Don’t commit if your not ready to.</p>