penn v. berkeley v. northwestern...

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Please help, I am really stressing about the decision that I have to make in about two weeks. I am trying to decide between penn, berkeley, northwestern, and maybe UCLA and Harvey Mudd...</p>

<p>I applied under chemical engineering, although I'm not sure I will stick with chemical, and I am not sure whether or not I will go into some engineering related work once I graduate. I'm also interested in taking business classes as an undergraduate.</p>

<p>I live about half an hour from berkeley too... I keep hearing that penn's engineering program is not as strong as berkeley or northwestern, and it isn't all that high in any rankings (although i'm sure those don't mean anything), yet I still like Penn because of the chances i would have to take classes in other subject areas such as business, whereas at Berkeley, the engineering curriculum wouldn't really allow me too much freedom to do so...</p>

<p>My parents try to give me the sense that cost shouldn't mean anything (for example, we'll be able to pay for penn without too much trouble)</p>

<p>I know all these schools are so different and hard to compare, which is one reason why i'm having so much trouble... so if anyone is still reading after all that rambling, please help :D</p>

2

<p>Penn would definitely be the best choice..Ivy league school, and while they don't have the best engineering school it still is Ivy league and your parents can afford it.</p>

3

<p>First off, prestige is not something that should affect your decision. I would really say either Berkley or UPenn. If you don't like your parents, or feel like you need freedom, go with UPenn. If you are rather attached to your home and the local scenery, Berkley might be the better choice.</p>

4

<p>ya, it's hard to not be allured by the ivy league, although in the end, i don't think there is much prestige and/or reputation difference between UPenn and Berkeley, and Berkeley is more well-known engineering wise.</p>

<p>I thought I would like being cross country, but the more i think about it, it would be easier to stay closer to home... but still I wouldn't have a problem with going to Philly. I'm very indecisive...</p>

5

<p>Data mostly drawn from USNWR</p>

<p>OBJECTIVE DATA</p>

<p>Undergraduate Enrollment:
U Penn: 9841 Northwestern: 8023 UC Berkeley: 23,482</p>

<h1>and % of students who are in-state:</h1>

<p>U Penn: 1771 (18%) Northwestern: 5215 (35%) UC Berkeley: 21,369 (91%)</p>

<p>Cost (Tuition & Fees):
U Penn: $31,156 Northwestern: $33,559 UC Berkeley: $7703 (IS)</p>

<p>Graduation & Retention Rank
U Penn: 8th Northwestern: 8th (tie) UC Berkeley: 25th
-% of Students expected to graduate in 6 years:
U Penn: 94% Northwestern: 91% UC Berkeley: 90%
-% of students who do graduate in 6 years:
U Penn: 94% Northwestern: 93% UC Berkeley: 87%</p>

<p>Faculty Resources Rank:
U Penn: 1st Northwestern: 9th UC Berkeley: 40th
-% of classes with 50+ students
U Penn: 8% Northwestern: 9% UC Berkeley: 15%
-% of classes with <20 students
U Penn: 73% Northwestern: 72% UC Berkeley: 59%
-Faculty/student ratio
U Penn: 6/1 Northwestern: 7/1 UC Berkeley: 15/1</p>

<p>Student Selectivity Rank:
U Penn: 8th Northwestern: 17th UC Berkeley: 14th
-Average SAT/ACT:
U Penn: 1340-1520 Northwestern: 1320-1500 UC Berkeley: 1220-1450
-% of students ranking in top 10% of high school class
U Penn: 94% Northwestern: 82% UC Berkeley: 99%
-% acceptance rate
U Penn: 21% Northwestern: 30% UC Berkeley: 27%</p>

<h1>of NMS Finalists from 2005:</h1>

<p>U Penn: 133 (5%) Northwestern: 178 (9%) UC Berkeley: 53 (1%)</p>

<h1>of 1500 scorers enrolled:</h1>

<p>U Penn: 3110 (32%) Northwestern:1998 (25%) UC Berkeley: 3668 (16%)</p>

<p>Financial Resources Rank:
U Penn: 7th Northwestern: 14th UC Berkeley: 39th </p>

<p>Alumni Giving % and Rank:
U Penn: 40% (7th) Northwestern: 29% (29th) UC Berkeley: 14% (109th)</p>

<p>SUBJECTIVE DATA</p>

<p>Peer Assessment:
U Penn: 4.5 Northwestern: 4.4 UC Berkeley: 4.7</p>

<p>While UC Berkeley would be on everyone’s list of the top public universities in the USA, U Penn and Northwestern are among America’s top private schools and their statistical profile is superior to UC Berkeley in every objective measurement (except for the factor of cost). To residents of the Golden State, this may be a surprise and perhaps considered as heresy, but the numbers are what the numbers are. In fact, the biggest surprise might be how closely Northwestern compares with Ivy League U Penn. Among academics, all are very well regarded. For this subjective measure, UCB has a superior reputation.</p>

6

<p>hawkette: we all know how irrelevant most of the metrics that US News uses are. (Who really cares how many NMS finalists there are at a school? etc.)</p>

<p>I agree with Hegira.</p>

7

<p>thanks for all the stats so i can see them in one place...</p>

<p>i'm actually down in LA right now looking at UCLA/HMC one last time to make sure that i don't actually want to go to one of these schools.</p>

<p>I feel like i would love to be at UCLA or UCB, because of my familiarity with it, but i would also love the... almost idea of UPenn and the new experience of going cross country... not to mention the chance to maybe double major in business and engineering. I think my main problem with UPenn is their apparently "mediocre" engineering program, but what makes an engineering program mediocre? </p>

<p>I dunno too much about NU yet, i'm doing the overnight thing there in a coupla days so i hope to have an idea by then... i'm just a little worried because we flew through chicago a week ago and there was snow on the ground (in april?!) and i've heard the cold in the Chicago area can be "soul-sucking" whatever that means, but it doesn't sound good.</p>

8

<p>kyledavid,
I understand your sentiment, but I think you may be wrong in concluding that there is a consensus on the USNWR and other data and how it is used. People weight different numbers differently. You may not care about the NMS numbers, but I assure you that there are other readers who do. I"m not telling you how to interpret the data. If you don't like the NMS data or the graduation/retention data or whatever, then just ignore it and move on. But sometimes, when presented in comparisons, such data can illuminate differences in schools that merit further inquiry. I do not believe that anyone should be making college decisions based on the USNWR data, but they can help compare institutions and smoke out some of the hype (good and bad) that we read/hear about various schools.</p>

9

<p>ok so I just got back from visiting everywhere, and i liked penn and northwestern... but still like ucla and berkeley, but i think i'll end up at penn or northwestern and it seems like it is worth it to go to a private if i can well afford it...</p>

<p>i just really still don't know much about the engineering programs... i like how northwestern is out of the city a little and in evanston, whereas penn is smack dab in the middle of philadelphia</p>

<p>ah i dunno... but really, what makes one engineering department significantly better than another?</p>

10

<p>hawkette:</p>

<p>the USNews stats are meaningless in this case. Cal is known (worldwide) as of the top three engineering schools in the world (MIT & Stanford being the other two). For ChemE, this is a no-brainer - stay local.</p>

11

<p>bluebayou,
I think his choice is about more than engineering and ChemE. This is from the opening post:</p>

<p>"I applied under chemical engineering, although I'm not sure I will stick with chemical, and I am not sure whether or not I will go into some engineering related work once I graduate. I'm also interested in taking business classes as an undergraduate."</p>

<p>BTW, I would agree that many of the statistics in this comparison don't have great value. However, some probably do. I'm confident that the OP can figure out for his purposes which ones have relevance and which do not.</p>

12

<p>hawkette:</p>

<p>agreed, ChemE may not last, but it's all the more reason to attend the second best engineering school in the world.</p>

13

<p>tedhead - I was pretty much in the same boat as you (w/ a few other schools on my short list as well).</p>

<p>Pretty much for me it came down to where I thought I would "fit in"?</p>

<p>I decided that I didn't want to go to a large state school - which dinged Berk and UVA.</p>

<p>I decided that I didn't want to go to school in the boonies and wanted to be in or near a large city - which dinged Dartmouth and a few other schools.</p>

<p>Location-wise, I liked Evanston/Chicago better than Philly and a few other more urban campuses.</p>

<p>Just decide which of these schools is the "best fit" for you.</p>

14

<p>ya, i liked evanston more than philly too, i'm just not too sure if i really like the engineering program/curriculum at northwestern, and it didn't sound like i would have the same internship opps as i would if i went to penn... plus its even colder in evanston than philadelphia :P but if the cold bothered me that much i'd probably be heading to ucla...</p>

<p>i think it does come down to whether or not i'm truly interested in engineering as a major/career, which when the more i think about it and learn about i, i'm not sure if i want to do... ah i just want to decide and move on...</p>

15

<p>hawkette: by that logic, I guess it's useful to compare schools based on the number of trees on the campus?</p>

16

<p>Penn chem people won Nobels. That has to count for something.</p>

17

<p>kyledavid,
If YOU think that comparing campuses by the number of trees, then go ahead. I'm not telling you which data to use. It's your decision. I"m just putting data out there for people to know about and make comparisons. They can make their own decisions.</p>

<p>BTW, I like the trees around UCB and the surrounding areas (like Tilden Park)and think that the campus beauty of UCB vs Penn and Northwestern is a strength. But that is just what I like and may not be what you or others like.</p>

18

<p>Penn's campus is in the national register of historic places</p>

19

<p>As an undergrad, I chose Northwestern over Penn because I preferred Evanston/Chicago to Philly... Also, I preferred NU's academic offerings (film, art history,) and social atmosphere, (a bit less preppy, and more bohemian.)</p>

<p>I'm very happy with NU.</p>

20

<p>tedhead,</p>

<p>One thing you may want to find out is how possible to take advantage of Wharton. People are gonna say Penn has Wharton, so go there. But is it really accessible? All I know is it's difficult to transfer into.</p>

<p>At NU, you would have an opportunity to get into one of the two certificate programs offered by Kellogg. There are 50 spots up for grab for each one. They encourage people to apply at the end of sophomore year.</p>

<p>As for internships, I am not sure if you meant engineering ones. FYI: NU has one of the oldest (if not the oldest) and most established CO-OP programs in the country.</p>