PennState/Jefferson BS/MD vs BME at JHU, Duke, Rice...

Hello everyone,

So I am in a difficult situation and would like some advice. Currently I am incredibly blessed to be choosing between BME at Duke, Rice, or JHU (which are some of the best schools in the country for BME) versus PennState/Jefferson BS/MD.

I am conflicted because I want to do BME undergrad so that I can get engineering skills and BME research opportunities that I can apply to medical research in the future (possible MD/PhD), but at the same time I know it will be really tough to get into medical school in the future and Jefferson is a great medical school.

I am dead set on becoming a doctor AND doing bioengineering research… With the pre-med support system at Rice, JHU, and Duke also being a factor, any advice?

In terms of cost, assume JHU is the most expensive by 25k/year and the rest are about the same cost.

Thanks!

How is your Physics and Math? Did you take those SAT2 subject tests? They will predict how well you’ll be doing in BME.

You need to weight/choose your priority - MD or BME. JHU is the top choice for BME among the 3, but it can also be the biggest hole you can dig yourself into GPA-wise. In general, BME is NOT a good choice for pre-med since engineering curriculum is very rigid and grading is harsh with no room for mistake. Lots of pre-meds and their parents think BME is a great Plan B choice but in reality BME has been proved to be the quickest killer to med school dream. Not to say there is no BME made it to med school but very few. Unless BME is your true passion, avoid it if your end goal is med school.

MD/PhD needs a higher GPA than MD. If you think it’s going to be hard for you to get into MD, what’d you think your chance for MD/PhD?

I’m strong in math (800s on Math 1 and 2 Subject Tests), but a little weaker in physics (4 on the AP Physics Exam). I see your point, as I have heard a lot about how engineering can drive down GPAs, so that is something I will definitely consider… And yes I think it will be hard to get into MD just based on the numbers, as the acceptance rates for medical schools are very low (Jefferson Medical School alone is about 2.5%), but I also think I have a strong work ethic that will give me as good a shot as anyone else. I did not know MD/PhD requires an even higher GPA, but I do know that generally less applicants apply to MD/PhD than MD. Thank you for your insight, I will have to weigh these factors carefully.

@ThoughtWanderer Based on 2017-18 report from AAMC, there are 24664 applicants for 646 matriculants in MD/PHD programs. It is extremely competitive. IMHO, go to PMM.

@ThoughtWanderer, @dadofd,

Firstly, I think physics is more important for engineering than Math. I would guess the same applies to Bio medical engineering, so 4 on A.P. Physics is something ThoughtWanderer needs to think carefully about. Was the test taken recently or few years back when he did not have a solid grip yet? Perhaps he could have done better if taken later?
I don’t have the figures for the percentiles of students scoring at each level, but I do remember when D took the AP Physics C last year between top 30 to 45 percentiles scored 5s in each of the sections Mechanics and E&M.
Not to put anyone down, but just trying to assess the competition from strong physics background kids in your new BME class should you go that route.

Secondly, we may have to consider how many were offered MD/PhD opportunities and not just matriculants, if possible from the AAMC report. It is possible 3 to 4 times that number may have been offered admissions but only a few opted for it? Obviously some would have got into multiple such programs but will matriculate into only one and some others may have applied to MD/Ph.D as a backup or changed minds to go to M.D instead.

@rk2017 Yeah so by AP Physics, I mean AP Physics 1, (5% get 5s, 16% get 4s). My school doesn’t offer AP Physics C, but I got a 5 on AP BC Calculus… But yeah I guess I need to be honest with myself when it comes to my physics capabilities, definitely a factor when deciding what path to choose…

Good to know that, @ThoughtWanderer. But I am sure a lot of your fellow students would be coming armed with AP Physics C too. Something to consider.

@ThoughtWanderer You will be studying college-level Physics ( I, II, III) and Calculus ( I, II, III) and basic engineering in first two years. You have all the skills to do extremely well if you put the effort required. The college level physics will be calculus-based, not algebra-based. Don’t be discouraged by random posts on forums but trust yourself. You may have to do basic MCAT requirements ( Bio, Gen Chem, Organic Chem, BioChemistry ) in addition to engineering curriculum in the first two years. For engineers, higher level math( Differential Equations, Partial Differential Equations, Linear Algebra) is the basis of most of the things they learn later. GL.

College level physics can be as tough as anyone can imagine, especially in schools like JHU, Cornell and MIT. Especially when you are evaluated relative to others. Most of the students even in my D’s BU SMED class are struggling with college level Physics and Chemistry. These are all very brilliant kids who got selected to an elite program. Something to consider too.

@@ThoughtWanderer The competition is part of higher education everywhere and A’s are not given as generously as in high school. The material taught in Physics and Math (the accumulated knowledge in these fields) is generally the same regardless where you go (PSU or JHU) for UG.

Expectations from faculty and caliber of students at places like JHU and Duke are much higher, I would suggest if you haven’t already, to contact a student group of premeds at JHU/Duke and try to get a realistic picture there (like some one from the other thread did at NW).

Then you can still go with the programs if you have a strong urge, but bear in mind you will come to terms comfortably with whatever may be the outcomes of future with no regrets. So you need to factor in your changing and evolving personality also in decision making. Wish you much joy and progress wherever you may choose to go in next couple of weeks.

@ThoughtWanderer,

Also you may want to talk to your high school student counselling folks and peers currently and see what they may feel. I know sometimes it may be difficult to resist admissions from branded schools. But let me share some info from D’s high school batch last year. Of the 10 students who got into GATech (I think top most ranked in BME, besides all other engineering fields), none went there. Of the 9 kids who got in UC Berkeley, only 1 went. (But surprisingly decent percentages of those who got in Urbana Champaign, CMU and Maryland College Park went).

@rk2017 thank you for your advice. yes, I am actually already in the process of getting in contact with premeds at these schools. I’ve gotten a lot of conflicting advice on my decision from people I’ve spoken too, so it definitely will be tough. However, I am happy knowing that my choices are strong enough to make me so indecisive. I am still leaning toward the PMM program, but a lot could change in the next week…

@ThoughtWanderer,

If you haven’t already spoken to your school counselors and plan to do so, also try to get contacts of students, (or their parents) who went to these schools. Perhaps the best indicator is how the students with the rigor of your school are able to adjust to the rigors of these schools.

From what I have been reading, a 3.6 GPA is tough at schools like JHU (for you to be competitive in the main stream application process later). But then who knows, it may not be difficult for some one coming from a rigorous background.

As I wrote in the other thread, we were somewhat apprehensive similarly when D was going for a tough school/program, but grades don’t matter to her anymore. Whether an easy or tough course/test in any science subject, whether she scores 70 or 100, it doesn’t matter to her since her’s will the top score every time.

Also just wanted to give an idea of the rigor of the school D went to, by quoting from a class, in case if you want to cross compare.

D’s first AP was in sophomore year in a science subject. The prerequisite for getting into the class was a minimum grade of B+ in an honors class or A in foundation class. I took a lot of interest in finding out details about the class offered to help (which she never took) since it was her first AP.

First day of the class, the teacher walks in and says this is the first time he is teaching the AP course and so will be working hard but will make you all work harder. He asks the students to write down in their books, their own self expectation from the course, the grade they are expecting from the class and the score they will achieve in the AP exam. D wrote down B+ for the course and 4 for AP.

At the end of the class he asks everyone to strike down what they had written irrespective of what it may be, and replace the grade in the class with a C and the score in the AP with a 5.

The first quiz he gave out, lot of students ended up with Cs and Ds. The class started with about 30 students but after few dropouts, there were 25 left. 23 of them were of asian origin. 5 of them were sophomores and the rest all juniors and seniors. D started with a B, slowly worked up the way to B+ and finally made it to A- as the overall grade in that class. Out of such distinguished batch of students, final grades given out were 2 As, 4 or 5 A-s (with D being one, and perhaps the only sophomore) and the rest were all in the B and C ranges.

Needless to say she had no tough time getting 800 on the subject test or 5 on the AP. In the same school other teachers of the course were lot liberal. Another teacher ( with a Ph.D.) made sure everyone who got a 5 in AP exam had an A in the course, if not he would change it to an A retroactively.

D unfortunately faced such tough and strict teachers few times, but it all worked out finally. It appears the school she is attending now, knew about the reputation of the high school and granted her interview and admission. They did it this year also to couple of students from the school, despite tremendous competition for their program.

Finally decided to commit to PSU/Jefferson BS/MD. Thank you all for your input over the last few weeks! I’m so happy the college process is finally over.

Congratulations!!

Can you explain your rationale? I’m sure it’ll be of use for students in your position next year.

I think you made a great choice. My daughter is about to graduate with a bme degree and has done quite well in this major. It was challenging in the sense that she had to make sure that she took her engineering prerequisites in sequence to graduate in four years. ( 9 semester curriculum) 17 to 18 credits a semester. Along with that she added honors classes as well as premed classes. She doesn’t regret her choice one bit. She did very well in her major. The issue that arises is that you end up taking classes in computer science, mechanical, and electrical engineering as well which are quite time consuming with the project work that is involved. Time management is crucial so that you don’t get behind. Combining engineering and premed is not for everybody but there are students that do manage to do it. (and do it well)

The important thing is to start college with very good study and time management skills. What worked in high school may not work in college because the classes go more indepth and are more fast paced. You really have to stay on top of things and make sure to get help immediately if you find yourself getting behind in comprehending the material. Don’t hesitate to go to office hours and tutoring. Put your best effort and stay focused on your goal. Take every opportunity to utilize all the resources available to you and get to know your teachers.

I am compiling a post to explain my rationale soon. In fact, this was not a decision based on being afraid of hard coursework or not getting into medical school. I talked to a lot of people, examined what things are most important to me (including factors as basic as my limited time on this Earth), and did a lot of soul searching to understand how valuable “prestige” is to me and the medical field, especially at the undergraduate level. Turning down Rice was ultimately the hardest for me, although I fell more in love with its campus and weather than its people. And even now, small doubts come to my mind if I made the right decision. But, when I reflect on my process and how comprehensively I examined my options, I am reassured of my choice. Hopefully I can share some of my insight with this community soon in an inevitably lengthy post…