Perils of striving for elite colleges

Parents Forum
21

<p>"mini, though you bring up football a LOT, there are plenty of males who get into very selective colleges who don't play ANY sports."</p>

<p>Who said otherwise? At my alma mater, when you take out the developmental admits, the sons and daughters of senators, congresspeople, and ambassadors, the important legacies, the desired URMs, the recruited low-income folks (Questbridge, etc.), and the athletes (40% of the student body plays varsity sports; 54% when you include jv and intercollegiate club sports), there's still 50% of the student body left (slightly less for males)for the others (especially if they can pay the freight). And I'll bet at Brown, it might even approach 55% or 60%.</p>

<p>But I think we WAY underestimate the value of athletics in "striving for elite colleges". They are NOT just another EC, or "a passion". (And, I suspect, if they'd ever give us access to the ED data, that would come into focus even much more clearly.)</p>

22

<p>Mini, I have a carload of football players at this house, so this old lady is unfortunately a "pro" in highschool football when I never had any interest in the sport or subject. Did not even grow up in this country, so I pushed, soccer, soccer, soccer onto my kids, none of whom want to play soccer anymore, and some of them were pretty danged good. Football stole them away.</p>

<p>There are very few football players on any of the teams I know who are getting into college for football. Where I live now, it isn't surprising, because this is not football country here, but actually more kids are using it as their hook, because they are applying to highly selective schools, LACs that are D-3 that are also heavily academic. Your alma mater, by the way, is a major player here in this situation. I never heard Williams even mentioned where I used to live; and I am willing to bet that most people there have no idea what or where it is. I lived in the midwest, in football country for many years, and the football players went to regional schools as a rule and unless they could make D2 or D1 teams, the football went out the window. Very few football players from the large public school in my area went on to college football, and I can guarantee you that the average player on that team could outplay some of these D3 wannabees here. But the brains? Well, let's say that their SATs did not make 4 digits. </p>

<p>Doubleplay, where my boys go to school, there are sooooo many talented musicians that unless someone auditioned for a performance major, it would not count for much. In fact, if someone wanted to continue music on an EC basis, these are not schools for such a person, since the perfomance departments dominate the scene so heavily. My son played with the idea of quitting his sport senior year of highschool to play football when the coach noticed him throwing the ball and wanted him. We did persuade him that this was not in his best interest as he was at a national level in his sport and would be an athletic recruit. To throw it all over on a whim, after all of those years invested when it could make the tip for college was insanity. Also he wanted to continue his sport in college. Just crazy, impulsive 18 year old thinking or nonthinking on his part, I think. But I tried to get him to give up the expensive private music lessons for a few years though he was very good. Time consuming, not practicing enough, and no future in it for college, because he had no intention to continue. Didn't want to quit, so I let it go, since there is intrinsic value in taking those lessons, but I doubt they did a thing for an admissions boost. You can't live just for college admissions, and that was not why I wanted the lessons to stop, but it was why I did not want the switch of sports.</p>

23

<p>Athletic admissions at the smaller colleges that field many teams is disproportianate. Didn't know Williams was in such a situation.</p>

24

<p>cpt, I'm a baseball mom myself (can you tell by the tag?), but oldest son played football "on the side." Got beat to crud year after year but loved it, loved it, loved it. Kids from our little high school did very well getting into Ivy's via the football route, even tho they wouldn't have been looked at by the big state college powerhouses. I think the reason was they could PLAY the game, and had SATs in the 1200+ range, plus good GPAs and a few APs. We had 6 kids go off to play ball at Ivy's or top tier LACs in the past couple years. 3 of them are no longer playing football but still attend. None of them were on scholarship- their folks had the bucks to pay full freight. Football was their passion and a ticket into a school they wouldn't have otherwise have had much of a chance at getting into.</p>

25

<p>In my community, the ONLY kids who get into Ivies (with very rare exceptions) are athletes. (though the football players looking for a good education usually go to Stanford.) They all could play, and had 1150+ SAT scores (with a few in the 1400-1500 range.)</p>

<p>I think the issue is NOT football (though football obviously impacts males, and schools with football teams have to recruit A LOT of female athletes), but the sports hook generally speaking. A top flight female rower simply has way, way more elite options than the mezzo who sings in the all-state choir, all other things being equal (they never are), ESPECIALLY if the school has a football team.</p>

26

<p>Thought there was some kind of body count bye for football in the Title IX rulings. Found out that male tenors are hot at school, by the way.</p>

27

<p>Going back to the OP, if you had to do it over again (as a parent advisor/mentor), what would you suggest to a kid who, as a freshman in highschool, has set his sights on an elite university? After having been through the process twice (although my kids didn't apply to the elites), I would recommend first and foremost- get to the top, or near top, of your class in terms of GPA, at the same time taking the most rigorous curriculum, and do whatever you can to get your SATs in the 1500-1600 range. Then apply to lots of elite schools, because you can't take anything for granted, and write great essays. Unless you're going to play sports or music throughout college, put your effort into schoolwork and academics. ECs are not going to make up for lackluster grades, courses, or test scores, so screw that unless it's something you really want to do. If you're in the top 2% and have a 1550 you're going to get some good offers.</p>

28

<p>I think it is unfortunate that the Millburn students burns the SAT prep books to relieve their stress. In my son's school there is a student run program to collect the prep books and donate it to less fortunate students in other schools.</p>

29

<p>The brutal truth seems to be that if you don't have extraordinary extracurricular accomplishments in addition to that 3.9+ unweighted GPA in a rigorous curriculum and 2300+ SAT score, you're not going to get in to the ultra-elite schools (by which I mean HYPSM, Columbia (which has gotten ridiculously selective), and the top three LACs). </p>

<p>On the other hand, if you focus on ECs and neglect the academics, you're not going to get into the next level down, either. But if you push the academics and let the ECs slide, the next level down is still a viable possibility.</p>

<p>So I go along with doubleplay. Focus on the academics. Don't neglect ECs completely, but be choosy. Don't try to do everything, and don't ever let your grades slide because of ECs.</p>

<p>The next level down from the ultra-elites is not a bad outcome.</p>

<p>As for the sports route to success, I wouldn't push that on anyone who didn't want it. It's not something a kid can count on. It's too easy for a kid to get injured and be unable to play at a high level anymore.</p>

30

<p>I know a few students who achieved exceptionally, in the academic area, in h.s., & whose college acceptances reflected that. Their e.c.'s were not sports, but were multiple for each student, & together were as demanding physically & practically as any varsity sport. Not a one of them has "compensating emotional disabilities."</p>

31

<p>Doubleplay, your posts #11 and #27 seem to express almost polar opposite strategies/mindsets. </p>

<h1>27 suggests: the ultimate goal is to attend an elite college/university and the purpose of nearly all activity in four years of high school should be directed toward that goal. When in doubt, emphasize academics over ECs, because that's strategically best in a cost/benefit analysis. (Unfortunately, as many students find out, that game is enormously stressful, and you can play it to near perfection and still come out a loser because elite admissions is so competetive.)</h1>

<h1>11 seems closer to the view (I hope) I've conveyed to my D: take as rigorous a schedule as you can handle, but to learn and challenge yourself, not because it's a hoop to get through for elite admissions; perform as well as you can but not because you think your're punching your Ivy admission ticket; pursue activities for the love of them, not because they're a means to admission, etc. (She dropped her sport after sophmore year with parental support.) At the end of the process, you'll have a pretty good sense of the tier(s) of school at which you can perform well academically and be comfortable. Apply: there's good education to be had at lots of spots in the prestige spectrum.</h1>

<p>Anyway, one vote for path #11.</p>

32

<p>Gilmore Girls notwithstanding (and wasn't Rory a HS sophmore when that series began?), I don't think there are any ninth graders who really have their sights set on an elite university. They may have parents who have encouraged them to feel that way. They may have picked up on the idea that it's a good thing, like playing in the NBA or dancing for NYCB or being a movie star. But I don't think I've ever met a ninth grader (except maybe for some with older siblings, but even most of those tend to zone college stuff out) who has his or her own ideas about college, or who has any real idea about the differences among "elite universities", "top LACs", "flagship state Us", or community colleges.</p>

<p>I'm pretty sure I didn't. I thought college was some place you went to do drugs, have sex, and work to smash the state. I was looking forward to it, sure; it was clearly much more fun than ninth grade, where I couldn't do any of that stuff. I was aware that people expected me to go to a particular school, and that sounded OK, but everywhere sounded OK. </p>

<p>So there's absolutely nothing I would tell a ninth grader to do to position himself for college, except to try to do his best at everything he undertakes, to try to figure out what he likes, and to be aware that he will be thinking about college in a few years. If the kid did great in middle school, I would still want to see whether that continued in high school before he started making college plans. (I have a nephew who actually managed not to get into any college -- not because his sights were set too high, with no safety, but because his school record was so spotty, and his police record, too, that there WAS no safety for him. He did great in middle school.)</p>

<p>If you pay attention to my posts, you know that I am an educational elitist. But I would never try to cram a square kid into that round hole, or to make even a "round" kid live his life with an eye to Ivy admissions. It's not worth it. They may offer the greatest educations in the world, but the second-greatest are pretty close. And the important things are happiness and success, which are NOT guaranteed by elite education.</p>

33

<p>As I read the article posted by the OP, I found myself back to the same place I often find myself on CC. The problem with a lot of the kids and/or parents is that they make getting into an elite school the goal. I don't believe that freshman in high school should have as a goal to get into an elite college. The goal should be to take classes that interest me, that can help me further my education and that will help prepare me to do whatever it is I want to do when I get out of high school. College bound kids need to take a rigorous curriculum and do and well as they can in it. They should pursue activities that they enjoy whether that be a variety of things or zeroing on an area of passion. </p>

<p>When the time comes, they should look for schools that offer the kind of academic programming they want, offers the activities they are interested in and has the kind of social atmosphere desired. If those schools are the elite schools, great - go for it. </p>

<p>But to set out early in high school with the idea being that I must get into an elite school to be successful sets kids up for all kinds of stress and dissappointment. If we, as parents, helped our children to see that there are lots of good choices out there, kids would be a lot less stressed about all of this. If students were more careful about choosing schools to apply to there would be fewer disappointments. Just my opinion.</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
The brutal truth seems to be that if you don't have extraordinary extracurricular accomplishments in addition to that 3.9+ unweighted GPA in a rigorous curriculum and 2300+ SAT score, you're not going to get in to the ultra-elite schools (by which I mean HYPSM, Columbia (which has gotten ridiculously selective), and the top three LACs).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You know, I don't think this is true. As I wrote on the other thread paralleling this topic (the 15K for Havard one), this approach and results do not describe my kids, and one is attending one of the above mentioned Ivies, and the other went to a top (though not top 3) LAC.</p>

<p>If you read the results threads from these schools, you can see that many of the admitted kids do not fit those parameters. I would hate for ordinary wonderful kids to get the message that they shouldn't even think of applying there; there are not enough like those described above to fill all these schools.</p>

35

<p>In the article, the author talks about an essay prompt asking students to talk about what they do for fun. Johns Hopkins asks a similar question- something about how to burn a spare day. You wouldn't believe how many threads that essay prompt initiated (I think about 6). How much anxiety it induced! Verily, does this not spark some alarm, as a parent? I'll admit, I would be concerned about his emotional welfare if my son was challenged by the question of how he would spend a day of leisure. So it is that kind of mindset that I believe the author might be talking about.</p>

<p>Marathon- my kids were the sort referred to earlier in this thread- sort of inbetween gifted and average. For that matter, they also didn't aspire to go to a Harvard. Therefore, we pretty much let them enjoy their ECs, and expected them to work diligently at their coursework. But no pushing to get to the top of the class, take 10 APs by 12th grade, get a 2400, etc. Just do as well as they could within reason. However, if I or my son were to seriously want to get into a Harvard, I would have changed tactics and encouraged him to bust his behind and make sure he got to the top, study for the SATs like no tomorrow, and the rest. There are an awful lot of kids out there who grind their molars over ECs. That's what my post #27 addresses.</p>

36

<p>The last time I checked, Harvard accepted about 96% of it's students from the top 10%, and the middle SAT is around 1400-1580. To me, that pretty much sums up the fact that it's going to be preeeeetty hard to get in there with a 3.3 and a 1300, even with 4000 hours of community service, or leadership, or band, or whatever. I'm just trying to be realistic. Although it's definitely true that not all students have those stellar stats. I got into a university on a music ticket. My grades and scores were not in the ballpark either. If you look at the students whose stats are lower than 25%, I'd wager that they are either going into some field, like I did, that didn't care what I got in physics, or they're an athlete, or something... Or maybe just luck, who knows, but it's not typical. I wouldn't discourage a kid from applying to anywhere, I'd just ask that he look at the facts and be prepared.</p>

37

<p>This all strikes me as so very sad. Call me a weirdo anomaly for CC, but I just think there is more to life than killing oneself in high school, working four hours a night on homework, doing ECs that one doesn't much care about (but thinks an elite college adcom does). </p>

<p>Where's the joy? The enjoyment of doing something for the pure pleasure of doing it? What a loss for these young people, that they couldn't think of a fun or exciting way to fill a free day.</p>

38

<p>"If we, as parents, helped our children to see that there are lots of good choices out there, kids would be a lot less stressed about all of this. If students were more careful about choosing schools to apply to there would be fewer disappointments."</p>

<p>Yes of course, but societal factors and peer group have just as much influence as parents--sometimes more. Also, as I've already written about on CC too much, in some towns the competition for even the 2nd and 3rd tier schools is pretty intense because the general level of achievement of the student body is so very high. Consequently, very smart and accomplished kids with great numbers (who if they were from another part of the country would have little trouble gaining admission to top schools) can experience stress and disappointment as a result, esp. if they don't choose to attend college very far from home.</p>

39

<p>
[quote]
What a loss for these young people, that they couldn't think of a fun or exciting way to fill a free day.

[/quote]
That's not the case at all. I doubt there are many teens (I don't know any) who couldn't plan a fun-filled, exciting day. Their anxiety stems from feeling that even their fun-time & down-time is now being scrutinized by admissions counselors. For an essay prompt such as this, the kid's very core is being judged. It's a lot easier to know that one's grades or stats weren't up to par. But if your "essence" is judged to be lacking some special kind of pizzazz, that's a big ego blow.</p>

40

<p>my heart has always been set on colleges maybe not elite but my sisters went to 4th tier schools..that they loved...and there happy they started when i was in 4th for the oldest one and in 6th grade for the middle sister...so i got the taste of college at a young age i was looking at my sisters old college books by 8th...i could name colleges off the top of my head by 10th grade</p>