"When the Best is Not Good Enough"

Parents Forum
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<p>There's an interesting piece in today's NY Times analyzing the reasons behind the frenzy for ever-more competitive college admissions:
[quote]
Why do so many intelligent, rational people turn into basket cases when their children start the application process? Parents have always wanted the best for their children, but in the last decade this desire has taken an unusually obsessive form....

[/quote]
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/23/education/edlife/NOTEBOOK.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/23/education/edlife/NOTEBOOK.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>What's with us Baby Boomer parents anyway :rolleyes: ? I think she's got a lot of insight here and although I sorely don't want to have the syndrome she describes, I am painfully aware that several of the symptoms apply. I frequently remember how the game starts way back in the competition to get the "right" kindergarten or first grade teacher. I refused to engage in that game, but the whole atmosphere of parenting these days is imbued with these obsessive tendencies. It takes spine and a ton of self-talk to flout it. Just my $.02.</p>

<p><em>dons well-used cc flame proof suit</em></p>

3

<p>I dont see why people attempt to analyze college admissons so much in terms of the parents and children?</p>

<p>its fairly simple.</p>

<p>both the parents and the children want the child's hard work to be rewarded and the biggest way that this can be done is for the child to get accepted into a great university.</p>

<p>thats pretty much it.</p>

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<p>I dunno, bobbobbob--I think jmmom has a point that the obsession starts as early as kindergarten (or even preschool), when most of our little darlings probably haven't been working all that hard :rolleyes: ...</p>

5

<p>Why would parents view an education purchase any differently from any other purchase they make? It is well known that many consumers [none on CC, of course :-) ] consider labels and other indicators of status when making purchases. </p>

<p>Heck, what I used to call "competitive child rearing" started for us on the playground. Surely you remember those fellow parents who seemed to have Brazelton's milestones memorized, and somehow kept score - extra points for early reaching a developmental milestone, points deducted for late. As if when a child walks, or learns to ride a bike, or can count to three has any bearing on later life!</p>

<p>At any rate, not everyone has the brand consciousness alluded to in the NYT piece, but we should note that it is difficult not to be seduced by the image building (the branding), whether with colleges or with consumer products. So I suspect (and have been flamed for saying it right here on cc) that a lot of folks may be paying more attention to the consumerism suggested in the article than are willing to admit it, or perhaps recognize.</p>

<p>The desire to "do better" is pretty common. It is too bad that "better" can be so hard to define, so hard to recognize.</p>

6

<p>If I ever become one of those parents, please send me on a hunting trip with Darth Cheney.</p>

7

<p>I can say that when we left our CA small town high school for college, it usually was to a public UC, Cal State, or CC. We took the SAT's once, and possibly the Achievement Tests (now SAT II's). There wasn't this angst to get in, we knew we'd go somewhere to continue our education (and most without visiting first). CA privates or out-of state publics/privates were not on the radar screen at all (could have been $$ or entrenched California"ism"). Status wasn't a factor. I vaguely recall some such guide books in the counselor's office, but they were a zillion years old. A few transferred, a few dropped out, but most happily stayed put. Now, the information age has put these previously ignored colleges at our doorsteps and we've done a tremendous amount of due diligence to find what's best for our kids. The rankings that became so prevelant since the 80's for everything imaginable, fueled our upwardly mobile group. The kids are burdened with more peer/parental pressure than we were, but do you think they'd be just as happy and the outcomes just the same if they were subject to what we experienced? I rarely hear anyone say they got short-changed.</p>

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<p>Do you all have Safety Town in your communities -- a program run by the police department to teach soon-to-be kindergarteners how to cross the street safely, etc? I remember that when the college frenzy started, one of my friends with slightly older childrne than mine joked, "What? Your kid didn't take AP Safety Town?" That's pretty much what the atmosphere has become like.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
It is too bad that "better" can be so hard to define, so hard to recognize.

[/quote]
A little anecdote to file in the Sad But True archives. Back during the aforementioned "get the right kindergarten teacher" wars, I remember sitting at a tee-ball game and hearing this from two parents chatting on my left: "You don't want to have Miss X; she's overly rigid." Two minutes later the conversation on my right was: "Make sure you don't get Miss X (same teacher); she's way too nurturing." ????</p>

<p>A client of mine who was a third grade teacher heard this even worse exchange between two mothers in her school's lunchroom: "Avoid having your child be in Miss Y's class. She wears too many earth tones."</p>

<p>Too often the prize is just in getting the higher ranked, more sought after teacher/school/(fill in the blank). The rankings may be meaningless, but the competition self-sustains.</p>

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<p>""Avoid having your child be in Miss Y's class. She wears too many earth tones."</p>

<p>Major LOL!!!!!</p>

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<p>Regarding Post #5,
I've never seen it denied on CC, or elsewhere, that "a lot of folks" apply to prestigious colleges for brand-name reasons. No one has "flamed" anyone for asserting that such motivations do exist among the population represented by those apps. Particular CC students have stated it (of themselves, of other students, of their parents). Particular CC parents have all but admitted it.</p>

<p>However, some day some people will eventually understand that the particular does not prove the universal. Never has, never will. It's meaningless to me whether 20%, 50%, or 80% of such applications are brand-driven. What is more important to me, to my children, & to my students, is that options are available to them today that would not have been available several decades ago. Not all students need to, or should, take advantage of, or aspire to, all those options. Where those options are appropriate, & are carefully thought out, & realism considered, I am glad for the inclusion, & for the fact that the world has "shrunk" in that respect. Unlike some posters on this forum, I do not long for "the good ole days" when "everyone" -- appropriately or inappropriately -- sauntered off to the local Public without blinking an eye or putting a question mark at the end of the sentence. The point is, in many cases it <em>was</em> inappropriate -- socially, psychologically, academically (curriculum-wise), culturally, politically. Fit frankly should have been more of a consideration, much more.</p>

<p>In "the good ole days" people also did not jump on planes at the drop off a hat & fly across country. It was a big deal merely to leave one's state, let alone go to the other side. It was an extremely big deal to fly to Europe, & rare to fly to Asia -- unless you were like us, a military family that flitted around. Yet I think that we are all enriched by not just staying in our small towns, but widening horizons. </p>

<p>Somewhere between the automated-response toward the local public, and the obsessive Holy Grail of the "perfect"-fit (or the "perfect") college, lies probably a vast population of thoughtful, rationale, non-brand-driven people who merely want to investigate all the <em>likely</em> options available in higher education. I don't call this narcissistic or of suspicious motivation. I call this responsible, actually.</p>

<p>Point #2: Brand motivation is hardly limited to private colleges, or even to a particular section of the country. Thousands of families consider UC Berkeley, UMichigan, and UVA "brands" as much to-die-for as others consider HYP brands.</p>

<p>Point #3: Quite by accident, my D ended up at one point at a preschool that we later found out was -- haha -- highly "ranked", if one can, absurdly, rank a preschool. We had no idea at the time: it was just the only one open when we were transferring. It happens to be that every one of those students is now at a top-tier university. I would say that the non-obsessive parents outnumbered the obsessive ones, to a great degree. However, the one factor that all the kids had in common? They were clearly intellectually gifted: that was obvious from the informal conversations I heard among them & just watching them operate & interact at school. So be careful about assuming how & why students end up at "prestigious" universities & colleges.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
No one has "flamed" anyone for asserting that such motivations do exist among the population represented by those apps. Particular CC students have stated it (of themselves, of other students, of their parents).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Epiphany, I recall this post you made March 23.

[quote]
To answer your rhetorical question, susan, addressed to the insulters, the answer is Yes. Newmassdad really does believe that, if you can check the history of his statements and his replies for the last 1.25 years. Yes, he believes these broad generalizations. Also, he has apparently bought the mythology that 100% of UChicago students are motivated by academic purity. Surely there are no status-seekers there. (Wrong: I know a few who have particularly applied to or chosen Chicago for status reasons, & especially to claim their distinction as supposedly superior "scholars" -- in contrast to the inferior slackers at those horrid Ivies.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I guess that does not count as a flame in your book. Never mind. It is good that we have "purists" among us who see through the marketing and branding and still find those elites are still worth going to.</p>

13

<p>Bob, you said: "both the parents and the children want the child's hard work to be rewarded and the biggest way that this can be done is for the child to get accepted into a great university." </p>

<p>That sums up my feelings perfectly. My son has done everything he's supposed to do as a student and more -- but will it be enough? Time will tell.</p>

14

<p>The highly status-conscious social environment of NYC and other large, affluent cities in the US, should not be construed to exist in "most" of US by any means. It is really not a world most people can relate to.</p>

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<p>but weenie, I live in a very small town with none of the "enroll your kid in the right pre-school upon conception" madness etc. Still, the tendencies toward competitive parenting are here. If they're here, they're pretty much everywhere.</p>

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<p>jmmom,</p>

<p>Maybe folks outside NYC and other large, affluent cities want the "best" for the right reasons? (cough, cough)</p>

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<p>That's it, newmassdad. :D Pure as the driven snow, that would be us.</p>

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<p>Oh, boy, they must have thought I was a wierd mother - in pre-school I asked whether or not I should hold D back because she would be a young 5 going into kindergarten,a nd I was worried that it might be too early for her. They laughed at me - who, her? You have to be kidding! In kindergarten, when she was chosen as one of 5 to be placed in the GT program in first grade, to be joined by second graders, I asked the teacher if she, at her age, wouldn't be better not in it, or wait until next year. She laughed. Of course she is holding her own. Don't worry. I was worried that I might be seeing my child through rose colored glasses, just because she was my child. And I wanted what was best for HER, not some GT notation, or starting school earlier than others. She was self-motivated and did not just what was expected, but more, so when the time came for college, she wanted a school that would give her the opportunities that our local schools couldn't to the same extent. I never applied to the elites - back then, if you couldn't pay, you didn't apply. Now, with most elites meeting 100% of FA, it made it possible for kids who normally wouldn't even look at them to go for it. And I think that advertising in our culture and the need to have the "right" jeans or purse has transferred itself to the college admissions game, as well. For many people, having the name is a sign of having arrived, of having a sense of self-worth. It's sad, really.</p>

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<p>Bob, you said: "both the parents and the children want the child's hard work to be rewarded and the biggest way that this can be done is for the child to get accepted into a great university." </p>

<p>That sums up my feelings perfectly. My son has done everything he's supposed to do as a student and more -- but will it be enough? Time will tell.>></p>

<p>I have to admit it; I don't think I ever thought that my children's hard work required a reward.</p>

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<p>I'm curious: How many of you had an unsatisfying university experience? How many of you who followed a non-prestige route regretted it at some point along the way? I can only speak for myself. I attended a state university because I wasn't given FA at any of my private choices. I found it a poor fit. I was overqualified for the school and far more "geeky" than most of the kids there. I also found that the prestige label follows a person throughout his/her life. Even now, many, many years out of college, I've seen that my Ivy-educated husband's background is a factor when promotions, assignments, outside opportunities crop up. I haven't done at all badly but I find that I have to prove myself again and again and again.</p>

<p>I wonder at those who say it doesn't matter. My daughter's high school keeps intoning this chant, but when I look at the teachers they employ, I see that the vast majority have "the label." Obviously it matters to them. </p>

<p>I want my children to have the best college experience possible. I want them to be with similarly bright, interesting, interested kids and I want to keep as many doors open for them as possible. I suppose I must be pretty typical.</p>