PhD in History or work and then MBA?

Graduate School
1

<p>I'm a Berkeley student with high GPA in History. I have always had a passion for history ever since I was really young but I later developed an interest for business.</p>

<p>It was a lot of back and forth contemplating but I've opted to major in History (with a focus on the Ancient Mediterranean, and I will be writing an undergraduate thesis) and take Econ/Business/Stat classes in addition (There is no minor in any of these fields and I couldn't decide which to double in). I have had a lot of experience at major finance and investment firms, like Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch, doing various jobs such as private wealth management and mutual fund research/analysis. I had every intention of entering the corporate business world and maintain history as a hobby but given the recent economic crisis, I have been re-thinking my path. </p>

<p>I wanted to get a PhD in History and be a professor before I came to Berkeley as an undergraduate but my parents emphasized they would not be able to pay for it. They can pay for part of my graduate education, but not a longterm PhD. Lately, my passion has returned to pursue a PhD in History (unweighted: 3.7 overall, 4.0 major, Berkeley weight: 3.65, 3.83). I do not have undergraduate research experience but I am only a junior and that can be remedied. I can definitely comfortably get 3 or 4 stellar recommendations from professors in my department. </p>

<p>The problem is I have no language background, nothing. This is the second major reason why I have held back from getting a PhD. How do the number and types of languages vary between History fields?</p>

<p>Also, should I take the GREs, start learning a language, and apply for a PhD program? With a lack of strength in languages and no research experience, will I not get into top 30 PhD programs? What are my alternatives to pay for PhD programs (besides loans)?</p>

<p>Or should I continue on the path towards business school? </p>

<p>I am passionate about both topics but I'm trying to get a bigger picture and think more long term. Long-term job security is more important to me than making a lot of money. I don't have to make a lot, but enough to support myself, and if I have to, my family. </p>

<p>Thoughts? Advice? </p>

<p>(I apologize for the length of my post, I'll keep it short in my responses)</p>

2

<p>From what I've read the career prospects for PhDs in the social sciences are worse than a career in business. You don't have to work for a top investment bank to work in business or receive a MBA. There are millions of other companies out there.</p>

<p>If you still want to pursue a PhD there are scholarships and fellowships out there that don't come from your school.</p>

3

<p>I am not concerned so much about career prospects as much as securing a job for a long period of time.</p>

<p>Lately, thousands of people in the corporate world have lost their jobs and have to start new careers. This has not just transgressed to I-Banking. Consultants, real estate agents, mortgage brokers, bank managers, etc. have also being losing their jobs at record paces. Even before the crisis, there is a high turn over in corporate business, people often move and switch jobs. </p>

<p>Personally, I've been coming to realize, I might rather be a professor in a field I love and be assured that I won't be forced to move me and my family and I will be able to secure a position for a long period. The problem I am facing is: are there jobs in corporate world I can find comfortable job security in? Is it worth getting a PhD and coming into the work force much later and in large debt? Is there a way to avoid accumulating such debt? Things like that. </p>

<p>What kind of fellowships/scholarships do you think would be available? How much money could I expect?</p>

4

<p>@bchbabe704</p>

<p>What field of history are you interested in? If it's ancient Mediterranean, you must have ancient Greek and Latin language background. If you cannot do that, I would recommend the business career path. Classics is very competitive now.</p>

5

<p>To be honest, I am specializing in the Ancient Mediterranean at Berkeley but I definitely have other field interests. For example, I have been considering nineteenth century American society, or some part of early modern Europe, like Imperial Russia or Elizabethan England. What kind of language requirement would I need for these fields?</p>

6

<p>For Ancient Mediterranean at Berkeley Graduate History, they require Greek, Latin, English, German, and either French of Italian. This is why I'm a bit intimidated to do doing ancient work.</p>

7

<p>Hi bchbabe,</p>

<p>It's good to find a Berkeley student with an interest in the ancient Mediterranean, which is what I was just a couple years back. To be brief, graduate school work is long, rigorous and could be quite stressful. Getting a PhD from a top ten program does not always guarantee you a job. As far as funding is concerned, if you get admitted to a rich private school, you won't have to worry about tuition and basic living.</p>

<p>Re languages, to apply to top programs in ancient history, you will need at least two years of Greek and Latin, and it's better to have three years of each. It is recommended that you have some French and German, but Greek and Latin are much more important. If you cannot meet these requirements, there are now numerous post-baccalaureate programs where you could spend a year simply on languages. Few well known examples are Penn, UNC and UCLA. Doing a master's first is another option to consider.</p>

<p>Perhaps this will discourage you from doing a PhD in ancient history. You may want to speak to the ancient history professors at Cal, who are the nicest and most resourceful mentors ever. Let me know if you have further questions.</p>

8

<p>Yes, I know that is what is so difficult! The professors in ancient history in particular are fantastic at Berkeley. However, I do love history and am not married to ancient history. I would be able to compromise as I am interested in a lot of other fields of history. I posted some other ideas three posts up. What do you (blukorea) or anyone else think about the language requirements for these fields? Language and funding are the two big issues holding me back.</p>

9

<p>"I wanted to get a PhD in History and be a professor before I came to Berkeley as an undergraduate but my parents emphasized they would not be able to pay for it. They can pay for part of my graduate education, but not a longterm PhD."</p>

<p>Are you seriously planning to live off of your parents' income through your late twenties? My parents would slap me upside the head if I asked them to pay a cent for grad tuition; they're already shelling out $10k a year for undergrad, which is no small chunk of change to hand out to able-bodied twenty-somethings when you're nearing retirement. As far as I'm concerned, I checked out of the house at 18--it's an embarrassment to have to accept gifts of this magnitude.</p>

<p>Fellowships. Research assistantships. Teaching assistantships. Part-time jobs at the library--tutor undergrads, if you must. If you're really strapped for funds, and you're as stellar a student as your professors say, I'm sure your potential institutions can put together a package that includes tuition remission and maybe a little stipend to cover basic living costs. And if all else fails, Federal PLUS loans are available (don't go private...though I'm not sure there will be anywhere private to go in a few years).</p>

<p>Note: You can't have absolutely zero language background, can you? Doesn't Berkeley have a language requirement? You took something in high school, at least, so I assume you mean "no background" as in no upper level classes or minors.</p>

10

<p>No, I took sign language in high school as my language. I took enough years of it in high school that I did not have to take it at Berkeley. The only other language that I speak fluently is Spanish. My mom is from Argentina so I can speak fluently but I don't know how to read and write that well. </p>

<p>Thanks, tkm256 for the advice on the financial aid. I will not qualify for financial aid but if there is some other merit-based aid, I think I can push and qualify for it. Aren't teaching assistantships and research assistantships really competitive though? I thought you also had to apply for them in conjunction to the initial application to the program.</p>

11

<p>Work a year or two and then decide whether to go for MBA or PhD. Many students, even in History, don't start grad school for a year or two. Use that time to take some language courses at night.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
I will not qualify for financial aid but if there is some other merit-based aid, I think I can push and qualify for it. Aren't teaching assistantships and research assistantships really competitive though? I thought you also had to apply for them in conjunction to the initial application to the program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In most humanities doctoral programs, all applicants are considered for assistantships. You may have to tick a box on the application, but that's it.</p>

<p>However, here is the most important advice:
Do NOT embark on a PhD in the humanities without full funding. Period. Financial support at the graduate level is not awarded on the basis of need, it is awarded on the basis of merit.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have been considering nineteenth century American society, or some part of early modern Europe, like Imperial Russia or Elizabethan England. What kind of language requirement would I need for these fields?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>American history is oversaturated, and will remain so for some time. I would not recommend graduate work in this area. Early modern Europe (including Elizabethan England) is only slightly better, but not very much at all. Imperial Russia is much more promising in terms of employment.</p>

<p>As to languages:
American -- French and German, and any other languages relevant to your specific intended subfield in 19th c America (Spanish, Chinese, etc.). At the completion of undergrad, you should have either French or German, as well as the field-specific language.</p>

<p>Early Modern Europe -- French and German, and whatever languages are relevant to specific intended subfield (Portuguese, Spanish, etc.). At the completion of undergrad, you should have either French or German, as well as the field-specific language.</p>

<p>Russia -- Russian and French and German. At the end of undergrad, you should have both Russian and French.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
I'm a Berkeley student with high GPA in History. I have always had a passion for history ever since I was really young but I later developed an interest for business.</p>

<p>It was a lot of back and forth contemplating but I've opted to major in History (with a focus on the Ancient Mediterranean, and I will be writing an undergraduate thesis) and take Econ/Business/Stat classes in addition (There is no minor in any of these fields and I couldn't decide which to double in). I have had a lot of experience at major finance and investment firms, like Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch, doing various jobs such as private wealth management and mutual fund research/analysis. I had every intention of entering the corporate business world and maintain history as a hobby but given the recent economic crisis, I have been re-thinking my path.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's perfectly fine to be undecided at this point. You're just starting your junior year! Grad students, whether it's for MBA or PhD, usually take a year or two off to work and think more thoroughly about their life plans. For the MBA- you just take the time off for the sake of needing to have 2 years of work experience for the applications. For the PhD- it's a matter of knowing what you're going to be sacrificing for the next 8-9 years (and possibly until you actually get tenured which would add in about another 5-10 years). Don't let the economy drive your path- a lot of people actually flee to graduate school (law, MBA, grad) just to have something to do until things get better, and just to get more skills/educational background to be stronger job candidates. So when the economy goes down, grad school apps go UP. Bad news all around.</p>

<p>
[quote]

I wanted to get a PhD in History and be a professor before I came to Berkeley as an undergraduate but my parents emphasized they would not be able to pay for it. They can pay for part of my graduate education, but not a longterm PhD. Lately, my passion has returned to pursue a PhD in History (unweighted: 3.7 overall, 4.0 major, Berkeley weight: 3.65, 3.83). I do not have undergraduate research experience but I am only a junior and that can be remedied. I can definitely comfortably get 3 or 4 stellar recommendations from professors in my department.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Keep thinking. Your "research experience" will be remedied by writing a honors thesis and many programs will accept that just fine because it's not the sciences where people can easily get in labs to get their research experience. History just happens to be more independent work, and thus more difficult to get research experience. Also as a rule of thumb, you do NOT (or should HAVE to) pay for your PhD. You're an investment to the academia and it's up to the programs to PAY you and you WORK for that degree. I've heard stories of people being accepted into top PhD programs without funding but they all, after considerable and rational thinking, turned them down and went to MA programs to bolster their applications for a shot at full-funding the next time around.</p>

<p>
[quote]

The problem is I have no language background, nothing. This is the second major reason why I have held back from getting a PhD. How do the number and types of languages vary between History fields?</p>

<p>For Ancient Mediterranean at Berkeley Graduate History, they require Greek, Latin, English, German, and either French of Italian. This is why I'm a bit intimidated to do doing ancient work.

[/quote]

Languages are definitely important. Professors do expect that you start hitting the ground and running with the primary texts in their original language. One of my seminars has a foreign language option (actually mandate for those with the background) where the students must look at the original sources by themselves before referring to the translations that the rest of the class gets. </p>

<p>For most part, it's ideal to get French and German reading knowledge down pat. You do not actually need to know how to speak or listen to it unless you plan on doing 20th century history (for oral history interviews). Schools like Berkeley offer intensive summer language courses- either in reading or just covering the entire first and second years in 3-4 months. Graduate students do these all the time, especially if they have a lot of ground to cover like ancient history. Since you're still a junior, you can consider starting a language course in the spring, or at least start in the summer. It'll cost extra money- but see if your department or relevant departments offer summer language grants. But if the PhD is what you want, you need to buck it up, and pay your way so you can get a full-ride somewhere for the PhD.</p>

<p>
[quote]

I am passionate about both topics but I'm trying to get a bigger picture and think more long term. Long-term job security is more important to me than making a lot of money. I don't have to make a lot, but enough to support myself, and if I have to, my family.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Academia and relevant fields can offer long term job security providing that you don't get yourself mixed up in bad politics. </p>

<p>
[quote]

To be honest, I am specializing in the Ancient Mediterranean at Berkeley but I definitely have other field interests. For example, I have been considering nineteenth century American society, or some part of early modern Europe, like Imperial Russia or Elizabethan England. What kind of language requirement would I need for these fields?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you're interested in other history fields, keep taking classes in those until you find a general time frame and geographical area that you'd like to narrow down in graduate school. Don't get hung up on Ancient Mediterrean just yet. I've been back and forth myself and looked at other fields too. As one professor said, it's normal for people to change fields and topics all the time and that's just part of connecting the dots in history. But for graduate school, you do need to have a very strong passion for a certain time period and geographical area that will sustain you for a long, long time.</p>

<p>In terms of languages, Elizabethean England would include Old English and Shakespearean English, maybe some other "Olds." Imperial Russia- most deifnitely Russian. Both will still insist on French and German for reading.</p>

<p>If you want to skip languages all together, you can just stick to US history. Except the problem is that... a lot of Americans agree with you and there's a fierce competition for 20th century America. Not a good idea to approach the adcoms with blanks on your application under the heading "Foreign Languages."</p>

<p>In short:
1) Start French or German ASAP, preferably a reading course. Don't start on Latin and Greek until you're 100% sure that ancient history is what you want.
2) Make the PhD programs PAY for you to come. Do not pay a single penny for that hard-earned degree.
3) In the spring, start thinking about your honors thesis and finding a very good advisor for it. Crappy thesis = crappy writing sample = rejection.
4) Don't rush in your decisions to apply- consider time off if you need to be sure that PhD is what you want. Talk to the grad students and professors in the department- you'll be very surprised at their answers. Sometimes they'll actually forgot why they're sitting in front of you. Sometimes they'll draw a romanticized picture of becoming a big-name, successful historians. It's quite amusing actually. Ask about the best and worst parts of their graduate school career so you can later mentally prepare for those major bumps on the road (usually the quals/comprehensive exams in their third year).</p>

14

<p>It sounds like you're looking for security and minimum stress. I can only address the banking side. Your experience at MS etc. was in non ibanking areas, not the ones that have historically rained money. As I'm sure you saw in wealth management, those guys need to build their businesses one client at a time. </p>

<p>Some really enjoy being analysts but it's high stress and only the top guys make great money. </p>

<p>Being a prof sounds much more secure and peaceful, as long as you're prolific, I just don't know how hard it is to attain.</p>

15

<p>First, you should not do a PhD, at least not now. It is nearly impossible to get into a PhD program without having a relatively firm idea of what you want to study, and the PhD will be a long, unhappy slog if you don't have a singleminded driving passion for a particular subfield in history. Fifty percent of history PhD students do not finish the program, and that is in large part because they don't realize that "loving" history is far different than wanting to spend every waking moment researching it. Successful PhDs in history go into the program to feed our research habit. Historical research is like crack for us. Even when we hate it, we can't walk away from it for long.</p>

<p>You love history, and that's great, but you don't even have a subfield narrowed down. Take some time to decide what you want to do. Getting a funded MA can also help. Work for a couple years. Lots and lots of grad students found their focus while working after undergrad, even if they weren't working in particularly interesting jobs.</p>

<p>Second, you must have languages for graduate history. Even American history generally requires at least one language and often two. This is not only to read primary sources, but it is also to read important books and journals in foreign languages. French and German are by far the most common across the subfields, but for classics, you'll need significant Greek and Latin - three to four years of each.</p>

<p>Third, do not get a history PhD to get a job. Have a backup. The job market for history professors is abysmal, and even the "shortage" areas have lots of unemployed PhDs. If job security and return on investment is important, a humanities PhD is not the way to go.</p>

<p>Fourth, as has been said, do not do an unfunded program. Do. Not. The top programs fund all their PhDs. Mid-tier programs fund those who they believe are the most promising. My tough-love statement would be that if you can't get funding, you're not going to be among the best in your field, and that gives you a good indication of the likelihood of getting a job in academia.</p>

<p>Summary: You're not ready for grad school. That's OK. I didn't go to grad school right after undergrad, either. Neither did many other historians I know, and several are now professors. If you can be happy doing something else and dabbling in history on the side, that's what I would recommend. If you can't get through the day at work without scribbling down research questions and surfing the net for primary sources and you still can't get enough history, then it's time to consider grad school.</p>

16

<p>Thank you for all of your responses. They all have been incredibly helpful. I'll contemplate on all of this but I have one more question. Do MBA programs accept GRE or GMAT? I looked on top 5 websites and couldn't get a straight answer. I want to be able to study for the GRE, do well, and then be able to apply to either graduate school after taking a couple years to work/learn languages. Thoughts on MBA taking GRE?</p>

17

<p>MBA programs only accept the GMAT. They do not care about GRE scores.</p>

18

<p>This has been the most interesting & informative thread that I have ever read on CC.</p>

19

<p>DespSeekPhd's post on the first page is one of the best I've ever read here on CC.</p>

20

<p>What do you mean about your weighted/ unweighted Berkeley GPA? I'm confused</p>