<p>i assume she's comparing them in the same places.</p>
<p>Just as a random note, I had a few professors advocate vehemently against philosophy grad school, but support the undergrad major just as passionately. </p>
<p>Go figure.</p>
<p>"ok, so i got a little stereotypical. i am aware that there are philosophy professors who do get paid to think, but i heard grad school for philosophy is ridiculously difficult, and my philosophy professor said, if you're lucky, you can start out with $40,000 as a phil professor, compared to $100,000+ as an MBA. obviously, philosophers aren't after money, but they won't starve by practicing it. even socrates' friends were willing to chip in money for him when he couldn't afford it. lol. "
You do realize that usually to get an MBA, or at least one from a top school, ur gonna have to have at least 5 yrs of work before the program, and generally, at top one will make you dish out anywhere between 100k-200k for the whole program.</p>
<p>If you do it right with a Phd for philosophy (as with other top PhDs), you usually work for the school (research and teaching at the school) for a small stipened, and fully paid room, board, and tuition.</p>
<p>Also, I think if you do it right, ur gonna make more than 40k a year easily if ur good at what you do.</p>
<p>My uncle went from cornell undergrad>Cornell grad> to being a professor at Amherst College. And assuming where he is working, and he works fulltime, i think 40k would be really low (afterall, ur talking one of the best colleges in the US)</p>
<p>I agree with BIGTWIX. I go to a top LAC and the pay for a full professor hovers over $130,000-140,000, depending on discipline.</p>
<p>Realize, however, that while FULL professors make that much, assistant professors (i.e. fresh out of Phd programs) make just a little over $40,000 (again, using my school as an example). There is money at the top level in academics, but it takes a long while to get there.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Go ahead and get that degree if you want. But if you tell me to shut up while you're taking my order at Burger King, your supervisor will hear about it.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>You sound like everyone who asked me why I was minoring in Philosophy and told me to pursue degrees that are worthwhile like business, accounting, finance or economics (something with real world application). </p>
<p>I'll be living comfortably and happy in that nice subdivision and/or condo with my gorgeous wife.</p>
<p>The quality of the job offer you receive or the graduate school you are admitted to is generally proportional to your academic performance and the selectivity of the college you go to. Provided the career or field you seek to enter does not require particularized technical knowledge, a philosophy degree will generally not be a hindrance. Leon Black, a private equity billionaire, graduated from Dartmouth with a double concentration in history and philosophy. Any investment bank or consulting firm will eagerly take a high-performing graduate from a 'target' school no matter what their major. Law schools view philosophy majors quite highly.</p>
<p>For the record, I am a philosophy major (and president of my school's philosophy club, to boot) and have every intention of becoming a hedge fund manager. Quantitative and economic coursework is very important, but your specific major matters much less than the skills and aptitude you bring to the table.</p>
<p>in a way, it is sooo intimidating to read all these posts, especially like Formidable's, repeating the word worth over, and over, and over again.
except for the fact that i simply disagree on what you find worthy.</p>
<p>Student615, i just want to say thank you for this, i think it is many times forgotten on CC:
"As a side note, it's worth mentioning that not everyone views an undergraduate experience as a means to one particular career. If all I'd wanted was a degree, I could have gotten one--any, philosophy included--for a heck of a lot cheaper than I did. The money wasn't spent in blind pursuit of a piece of paper."</p>
<p>Sure you may philosophy can apply to real world situations, and in some ideas it does, but to say that everyone can apply philosophy is just wrong. You didn't say that did you? Haha, just checking. But some philosophy can be real abstract, and it can mean a lot of things to different people. As you guys say there is no right answer, but doesn't that contradict the set of skills philosophy is suppose to give you, like those analytical, logical, and <i>clear</i> reasoning and thinking skills you guys talk about. I mean there's so much thinking and contemplating, that sometimes it can get confusing and contradictory if not every detail is explained to all individuals.</p>
<p>
[quote]
in a way, it is sooo intimidating to read all these posts, especially like Formidable's, repeating the word worth over, and over, and over again.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm having to repeat myself because some people just don't get the point. Philosophy is a very unmarketable degree. If you are choosing it because you can go to grad school with it, you are picking it for the wrong reasons.</p>
<p>There are other degrees that prepare you for grad school which are way more marketable.</p>
<p>if you are going to school to become marketable, you are missing the point, imo. You should be going to hone ur mind</p>
<p>There's a difference between not getting a point, and simply not agreeing with it. </p>
<p>That said, I didn't choose my major based on marketability (not even a little bit). Some do, and hey, more power to them. I've agreed with some of your points, Formidable, but understand that many of us have been speaking to an entirely different set of points than your own. ]</p>
<p>Marketability is not the #1 criteria that everyone uses to select a degree. It can be an important consideration, especially to certain students, but to most, it's only one of a wide variety of considerations. </p>
<p>(Part of me, the cynic, expects to get a response along the lines of "Well, marketability should be the #1 criteria, because why else pay all the money?" And in that case, then I just agree to disagree :p)</p>
<p>Whether a major is chosen for marketability or interest alone depends to a great degree on who is paying. A kid whose parents are able to comfortably pay his way can study whatever the heck he likes...and when he can't get a job, he can go to grad school or move back home or continue to let his parents pay his way. But a kid who is working without a net and has borrowed to cover the majority of his college expenses will more likely place a priority on employment marketability. Spending time and money to have the "college experience" and to dabble in whatever major one fancies is a luxury not everybody can afford.</p>
<p>i agree with you to a certain extent, lkf725, but that DEFINITELY doesn't always apply... and "dabbling in whatever major one fancies" is not how i would desrcibe following one's passion, even if it can not promise you a huge salary.</p>
<p>my parents and i are paying for my college experience, and do not have a large income at all (although that totally depends on perspective i suppose). my top interests in school are things that many people would consider quite unmarketable. but i guess it works out because we all agree that it is "worth" it, for reasons other than money. i guess my parents and i could also just be making terrible decisions for my future right now. haha.</p>
<p>There's a lot of space in between choosing solely based on marketability and solely based on interest. It's in this space--some combination of interest, talent, marketability, availability, familiarity, parental opinion, popularity, difficulty, acceptability, etc.--that most students probably make their choice of degree.</p>
<p>Likewise, there's a lot of grey area between "a kid whose parents are able to comfortably pay his way" and "a kid who is working without a net." Once again, the majority of posters on these boards probably fall somewhere into the loan-ridden, grant-receiving, scholarship-searching, financial-aid-navigating, corner-cutting, summer-job-searching space between. </p>
<p>Like liz, lkf, I do agree with your main point...it's a valid and important one. But in the context of this thread, I don't particularly care for the implication that someone pursuing a philosophy degree (or almost any degree, really) is merely a student whose parents are paying for him to "dabble in whatever major [he] fancies." Aside from being rather condescending (which I do assume was unintentional), this still overlooks the fact that philosophy is a challenging, respectable, and ultimately employable degree. Now, I agree with you...if I were choosing a degree based 100% on my desire to get rich in the future, and I didn't have any concrete grad school or employment plans with which philosophy would mesh, I wouldn't choose that path! But again, it makes sense to deal with more typical situations here, rather than extremes.</p>
<p>I know kids from extremely wealthy families who've been channeled straight into "practical" majors, and kids receiving major financial aid who've pursued Dance, Philosophy, English, Art...whatever. There are a lot of factors at play in these decisions...they vary between every student and every family. Most people will fall not at the extremes mentioned above, but somewhere in the middle, where, as liz points out, a degree's "worth" can be determined in a variety of ways.</p>
<p>Okay, so does philosophy give you those valuable skills that employers seek like they do with computer scientists' or a mathematicians' problem solving skills. Like those logical and critical thinking skills. Feh, they think they know better than business majors and the like, I just hate college people in general. But I've had the worst time in a philosophy class. Not all philosophy majors are bad, but man get in a room where there is open discussion and you'll get some freaking a-holes. Man, some of these guys were just taking way too many jabs each week about me cause of my offensive odor. And the professor allowed it, even took a few jabs himself. Not directly of course. But man, philosophy majors have to be one of the most pompous arrogant jerks I've met in my life. Some people just don't learn morality, especially in my phil class. I don't know if I want to major in phil ever cause of that.</p>
<p>"Okay, so does philosophy give you those valuable skills that employers seek like they do with computer scientists' or a mathematicians' problem solving skills."</p>
<p>Definitely not better math, but i would say that the knowledge of a philosopher is better applicaple to all parts of life. And surely, a philosopher should generally have far better rhetoric skills and better reading comprehension skills than a computer scientist etc.</p>
<p>And you know, a remedy to not get made fun of for smelling bad is to smell good.</p>
<p>To liz6298, student615 and others who might be offended: I certainly did not mean to offend those of you who may have an "impractical" major. But I still believe my point makes sense: students who have a parental safety net feel that they can take more risks than kids who don't. The former have the luxury of studying what they wish without the worry of employment to repay debt. The latter may have to commute and work full time to afford college. Different perspectives, obviously. Certainly, some kids with financial backing will choose practical majors anyway, and some kids without two dimes to rub together will study philosophy (or music or art or english). Everyone has a different tolerance for risk and debt. Also, not everybody has the same expectations of lifestyle. Knowing many people from both situations, however, I have to assert that finances play a part in choosing a major/career.</p>
<p>Of course, "math" and "a mathematicians' problem solving skills" are not the same things. Of course philosophy won't teach you any exceptional amount of the former (nor will any calc class teach you ethical theory), but as for the latter, sure. There's actually a lot of shared "thinking" between philosophy and math, in terms of style. It's more than a coincidence that some great philosophers have also been great mathematicians (and vice versa).</p>
<p>lkf: Entirely agreed (I just prefer the more moderate phraseology of your second post). Definitely a fair point.</p>
<p>"I just hate college people in general"</p>
<p>lol. maybe you're in the wrong place then. what is your offensive odor? is it because you don't shower? that is quite offensive. people are just defending themselves and their freedom to fresh air. </p>
<p>if all people wanted is just to be marketable, they probably should not go to college. if you just want to make money, go to a trade school.</p>
<p>And a simple shower cures that problem, I see...</p>