Physician Compensation Economics

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
21

<p>i would actually have to disagree with the time value argument. Doctors have much greater control over the hours they work than corporate workers and attorneys. IBankers, attorneys, and other members of the financial sector are forced by their companies/firms to work a ridiculous number of hours. Doctors, on the other hand, can work more to make more money, but also can work less if they choose to. Furthermore, the job security of a doctor is far greater than that of any job in the corporate sector. </p>

<p>The lifestyle of a doctor, although not glamorous, is certainly very comfortable compared to many corporate workers. The reason is not based on money, but based on a doctor's control over his own schedule, which can be very important, as it could also provide opportunies for other ventures.</p>

22

<p>There's two separate arguments that revolve around time. You've addressed one of them, I believe incorrectly.</p>

<p>The first and more important argument is that because IB, HS teachers, and automechanics, etc. earn more lifetime income is because they receive it earlier in their lives, when it's worth more. This argument is not what you're discussing.</p>

<p>The second and less important argument is that doctors work more hours than lawyers and other professions, so an equivalent compensation is actually much less per-hour. This is the argument you disagree with.</p>

<p>First, I don't believe I made any arguments about investment bankers. My comment was directed at people in Corporate Finance, which I believe has more to do with oversight of corporate budgets and investments on behalf of a firm.</p>

<p>Second, even those pursuing investment banking are not pursuing careers in IB. They spend a couple years there, go to business school, then exit as highly-paid and light-hours management.</p>

<p>Third, I believe you're using a small subset of attorneys -- those who work directly for a firm doing work on behalf of a corporation -- to attempt to argue that the broader field works very long hours. Partners at these firms, in-house attorneys, and private practice attorneys all work much fewer hours than these.</p>

<p>In other words, you're using very young professionals in business and law to compare against more established physicians, who (obviously) work fewer hours. The proper comparison would be more parallel than that. And while I think it could in some situations be close, medical residents almost always max out their eighty hours a week. I don't think most young lawyers can claim that. IB, sure, I'll concede -- but for a much shorter and earlier period of time in their lives.</p>

23

<p>I'd put young associates at or above 80 hours most of the time (sometimes well above) but that of course depends on the firm, and sometimes even which partner you're under (according to my friends currently in and recently out of law school). But even then, not all recent law graduates go into firms or positions (eg Public Defenders) where 80 hours is the case. Clerking for judges, entry into non-profit sector, and plenty of other corporate jobs where a JD is beneficial are not going to require that kind of time at work. 100% of medical residents are going to be over 60 hours a week (and I'd feel safe saying that at 65 hours), greater than 85% will probably be over 70/wk and probably 70% are at 80 hours a week consistently, with a sizable portion going over that limit one or two times a month.</p>

<p>And yes, doctors do have greater control in general. But if you want to earn salaries equal to the other professions in question here, doctors are going to be working far more hours.</p>

24

<p>Doctors are required by law to work no more than eighty hours per week on average and no more than 30 hours straight ever.</p>

<p>5% of residencies comply with these two rules, according to JAMA.</p>

25

<p><a href="http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Establishing that doctors do, in fact, continue to work very long hours after their residency.</p>

26

<p>I want to get an MD/MBA in grad school so that I can become an investment banker within the healthcare industry (or take on some administrative position within the field), but I can still fall back on being a physician if that plan fails. </p>

<p>Is this a sound choice or should I choose one or the other?</p>

27

<p>You should choose one or the other. For one thing, there's no need to get an MD to do finance within the field, since ... well, why would you.</p>

<p>Second, medical schools will not admit you if you tell them this, which means you'd have to lie to get it done.</p>

<p>Third, society subsidizes medical students considerably in the expectation that they will go into medicine for at least much of their career, or that they will do something which requires the MD. To do otherwise has ethical implications.</p>

28

<p>But the thing is I've always wanted to be a doctor, but everyone I know says that I'd make a perfect businessman (and it's sorta true - I'm very ambitious and am used to taking leadership roles in almost everything I do). If I have an MD, I'll have more knowledge of medicine than someone with just an MBA would have, so I would have less competition in my field.</p>

<p>Also, I know a lot of doctors that are good at what they do, but don't have the business acumen to run a private practice. That's where I could come in. I could do what I'm good at (business and administration) but still have the option to practice what I love (medicine). Do you think I should leave this out of my med school application?</p>

<p>Also, what should I major in for undergrad? Should I go the standard premed route or something else (like Biology and Economics)?</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
I'll have more knowledge of medicine than someone with just an MBA would have, so I would have less competition in my field

[/quote]
Only if that knowledge is actually relevant. You could get a PhD in Medieval British Literature while you're at it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Do you think I should leave this out of my med school application?

[/quote]
No, you should be honest about your career goals (many of them will ask). It will reduce your chances, I suspect, but you should be honest anyway.</p>

<p>
[quote]
what should I major in for undergrad? Should I go the standard premed route

[/quote]
Doesn't matter for premeds in the first place. Probably should pick a liberal arts major (i.e. economics > business).</p>

<p>My point isn't that an MD shouldn't have any business acumen. My point is that you should only go to medical school because you desire to practice medicine. Some MD's are politicians; some are businessmen; some eventually quit and go to law school. Changing your mind is one thing. Spending only part of your time in medicine while spending the rest of it somewhere else is also a possibility.</p>

<p>But if medicine is at best a "backup plan" if your main plan fails, then don't go to medical school. Go directly into consulting.</p>

30

<p>I agree with bluedevilmike. Alston's plan is not viable. To practice medicine takes 4 years of med school and at least 3 years of residency. 7 extra years of school/training is a long time for a back-up. </p>

<p>Also, it is difficult to know you love medicine. You might not like it as much if you got further into it.</p>

31

<p>
[quote]
Second, medical schools will not admit you if you tell them this, which means you'd have to lie to get it done.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.hbs.edu/mba/academics/mdmba.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hbs.edu/mba/academics/mdmba.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/admissions/programs/dualdegree.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/admissions/programs/dualdegree.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>go to google and type in md mba program and see how many listings come up; above are just two.</p>

<p>A friend decided he wanted to do hedge fund work after finishing a top 10 md/mba track and he now makes an astonishing amount of money....</p>

<p>I think money is a stupid reason to study medicine, but for those who have the brains and who want to and who don't agree, there are options.</p>

32

<p>1.) I certainly concede that my language was too strong. Hopefully you noticed that I backed off of it somewhat in post #29. ("It will reduce your chances.")</p>

<p>2.) However, I remain firmly convinced that if the question-asker explains that he has no intention of practicing medicine, medical schools will be disinclined towards his application. The MD/MBA programs you mentioned (there are similar programs at Duke, Penn, etc.) are not designed for people who never want to utilize their MD, they're meant for people who want to use the degrees in a hybridized fashion to achieve a broader good.</p>

33

<p>BDM: I completely agree, but I am sure that the people going down this path will have figured this out and lie about their intentions. In other cases, no lying occurs, but minds change.</p>

34

<p>Medicine - you will always have a job, consistent salary.
Corporate finance- based on bonuses, you may or may not make $300k in a year</p>

35

<p>Genius me forgot completely about taxes. Taxes in our society are targeted towards those who make a lot of money all at once.</p>

<p>In other words, those who make more money later on (i.e. physicians and lawyers, but especially physicians) get penalized relative to those who make their money in a more spread-out fashion (i.e. other professions listed).</p>

<p>So you should correct my figures above by some unknown amount -- but probably a lot -- to adjust for the progressive income tax. Physicians get penalized a lot; lawyers get penalized some, etc.</p>

36

<p>BDM: What made you choose corporate finance specifically? I should've said in my other post: I am going into medicine because I like science and academia, because I like the comfortable lifestyle it provides, because I'll get to help people, because I can work for myself, and a number of reasons besides just the money.</p>

<p>You say you're going to become a surgeon. Is it simply for the love, or are you considering finances as well? Would you do it again?</p>

<p>^Not trying to be confrontational; just curious.</p>

37

<p>1.) "Choose" in what sense? Why did I include it on this list? Because I was including lots of things and thought a listing would be incomplete without Wall Street.</p>

<p>2.) Yup. I could easily have gone to Wall Street and made vastly more money than I'll ever touch as a physician. I'm paying a lot of money* to become a doctor.</p>

<p>But that's what you do when you know where you're called.</p>

<p>*Yes, my tuition is high. No, that's not what I'm talking about.</p>

38

<p>A quick update. I ran some quick tax calculations. They're very conservative, because they only use half of payroll taxes and only federal taxes, since salary.com doesn't always specify whether it's salary or self-employed income and we don't know what state our person is living in.</p>

<p>Auto Mechanic: $563K
Chemical Engineer: $539K
Family Practitioner: $641K
Corporate Attorney: $707K
Interventional Cardiologist: $771K
Neurosurgeon: $862K
Corporate Finance: $1.8M</p>

<hr>

<p>Without taxes:
Auto Mechanic: +0 relative to Auto mechanic
Chemical Engineer: +20
Family Practitioner: +190
Corporate Attorney: +280
Interventional Cardiologist: +400
Neurosurgeon: +560
Corporate Finance: +1880</p>

<p>Now:
Auto Mechanic: +0
Chemical Engineer: -24
Family Practitioner: +78
Corporate Attorney: +144
Interventional Cardiologist: +208
Neurosurgeon: +299
Corporate Finance: +1237</p>

<hr>

<p>A professional economist -- as opposed to a medical student just toying around with Excel -- has actually figured that come time for retirement, plumbers are in better shape than family practitioners.</p>

39

<p>If you're only looking at the medical field for the money, it's evident that you're strongly mistaken. Go spend your career in business or finance being well compensated for making the "higher ups" a bunch of money. Personally, when I'm 85 and on my death bed I'd prefer to say "I saved lives" as opposed to "I'm rich". You've got to ask yourself what's most important in life to you.</p>

40

<p>Does anyone know how much a PA makes starting out on average? And how much they can eventually earn?</p>