Physics with Calc for HS senior planning on Physics major?

College Majors Science Majors
1

My son, a current HS junior, is planning on a physics major (and eventual PhD), probably with a large side of CS classes. His high school does not offer either of the AP Physics C classes.

Next year he has the ability to take a couple classes per quarter at our local UC campus. We are unsure whether he should start one of the physics sequences or not.

My husband, who has a PhD in Physics from the same local UC campus, advises him not to start a physics with calculus sequence in high school for the following reasons:

– Once he starts his undergrad degree, he will be somewhat limited in what courses he can fit in. However, for physics research, it is useful to have more “tools in the toolbox” such as circuit design, mechanical design, programming, plumbing, machining etc. (He’s had exposure to a lot of these already.) Husband says it’s better to take classes now where he can develop such skills or learn about other fields that my be involved interdisciplinarily with physics.

– At whatever college he attends, it will be better to start the physics for majors sequence along with the other students in his major so that he can join good study groups and be in phase for the quarters in which more sections of the courses are offered.

– Taking the physics for engineers sequence would be plug-and-chug, not “real physics”. (DH has an attitude…)

– Taking the physics for bio majors sequence that requires only Calc AB would be, well, you know…

However, husband was unaware that these days there are probably about 50,000 high school grads per year who have taken at least one AP Physics C (according to AP data). So, the question is whether other students who have had AP Physics C have a significant admissions advantage and/or are better prepared for the physics for physics majors sequence at whatever college.

For fall quarter, son plans to take Linear Algebra and one other UC course. Current possibilities for the other course include a math-based Astronomy course, Statics (mechanical engineering intro course, but husband says it’s basically the same problem over and over on different shapes), a CS course, or a geology course.

The local UC has a 6-quarter sequence for physics majors (starts fall only), 5-quarter sequence for engineering majors, and 3-quarter sequence for life science majors. (There’s also a 6-quarter sequence for a special research-focused physics program in it’s own College at the UC, but I don’t know if he will have access to that program.)

Background on his STEM classes so far:

He has taken AP Physics B (algebra-based). This year he is tutoring for AP Physics 1 & 2. There was a club he was in that met 1/week to watch MIT OpenCourseware physics lectures and do problems, but they didn’t get enough done to take the Physics C tests, and he’s not sold on the whole “self-study for a bunch of AP tests without taking the class” thing. After taking multivariable calc this year, DS feels like he could probably take the AP Physics C tests successfully with a bit of preparation just based on physics-related problems in math classes. But, he doesn’t feel like that is equivalent to a real class.

Thus far, he’s taken the following science-related courses (all As and 5s on AP tests):

AP Physics B (9th grade, last year it was offered)
AP Chemistry (10th grade)
AP Biology (11 grade); also took comm college Biology 1 summer before 9th to be allowed to take physics in 9th
AP Computer Science A (8th grade) + lots of other CS stuff as ECs
Physical Geology (at local UC as a summer class)
4-year engineering sequence at high school includes machining, CAD, wiring, programming, etc.

For math, he’s taken AP Calc BC, Multivariable, and Discrete Math. He’s also done some research in physics and CS at the same UC and will be attending an astrophysics summer program in Boulder that involves observing asteroids and calculating their orbits.

2

If he takes physics courses at a college, he should take the courses for physics majors. Some colleges may have honors physics courses as well.

However, even in that case, he should be aware that different schools’ physics departments may cover topics in different orders, so that physics courses may not be direct matches to those at another school.

AP physics C is not as math intensive as college physics for physics majors, since multivariable calculus tends to be used in the E&M part of the latter.

However, courses in some of those other related subjects (e.g. engineering, geology) may have physics prerequisites.

3

As a physics professor, I agree with @ucbalumnus that a college calculus-based physics sequence is not the same as AP. I was able to take Calculus and physics courses at UIUC while in High School and it was very useful for me. I was able to finish my physics degree in 3 years, take a second chemistry BS and take lots of CS and EE courses which have helped me in my career as an experimental physicist.

That being said, I have seen many students come into our physics program at Illinois Tech with AP credit and they have done quite well. The important thing is for your son to do what he is most comfortable with now. He sounds talented and motivated and that means he will probably do fine, whatever decision he makes. I wouldn’t overthink the situation but taking a physics for physics majors sequence is definitely better than the engineering one.

4

Thanks @ucbalumnus and @xraymancs – it’s helpful to have your opinions. He and I talked about it a bit more.

Finding a schedule that works to merge HS classes with college MWF / TuTh schedules is difficult! It looks like he can take his 4 HS classes in the morning and college classes in the afternoon, but that limits the set of college classes that work since most classes have a lecture and a lab/discussion.

Since the physics for physics majors class won’t be offered at a time that works for him, and you both recommend against the physics for engineers sequence, he plans to take other courses that interest him.

We’ve heard of some colleges where getting into the honors or top-level physics sequence requires having taken the AP Physics C tests (not to pass out of it, just as prep). If he ends up committing to a college like that, he can prep a bit and take the AP tests next May.

It looks like he will try to take something like the following (though winter and spring are tentative, of course):

Fall: Linear Alg and math-based Astronomy (plus a 1 unit honors add on for current astro topics)

Winter: DiffEq and CompSci I (skipping intro class for students with no prior programming experience)

Spring: CompSci II and Astro II.

Backups he’s interested in if these don’t work with his schedule include:
– other CompSci classes with CompSci I as the prerequisite
– Geology electives (since he’s already taken the intro course)
– Statistics (with some calc)

As UCB suspected, the 1st real courses on EE and ME require 3 quarters of the physics for engineers sequence.

He will ask about course auditing also, because from the syllabus it looks like the upper-division Intro to Cryptography class would be fine for him, but his doesn’t have the prerequisites (but has significant experience in that aspect of hacking competitions).

I’m also hoping they will let him take a 1-unit Freshman Seminar class each quarter. These are 20-student, 10-hour total classes taught by professors on topics that interest them currently. They offer about 20 of these per quarter, and a number of them sound really interesting. It seems like a good way to compare large vs. small classes (his linear algebra class will be 300-500 students) and to have more direct interaction with a professor.

5

Perhaps you are referring to Physics 61-65 at Stanford, which lists “Recommended prerequisites: Mastery of mechanics at the level of AP Physics C and AP Calculus BC or equivalent.”? See http://exploredegrees.stanford.edu/schoolofhumanitiesandsciences/physics/#courseinventory . Note that this is not a required prerequisite, so there should be no need to take the actual test if he self-studies some physics mechanics with calculus. (Indeed, it is likely that some concepts in introductory level physics are easier to understand with calculus than without.)

The Physics 5 and former H7 series at UCB does not list anything more than calculus and high school physics as prerequisites for the first course. See http://guide.berkeley.edu/courses/physics/ .

Prerequisites to such a course may include discrete math, abstract algebra, number theory, or CS theory.

Regarding physics for engineers courses, many colleges do not actually have such courses; they just have engineering students take the same courses that physics students take. UCSD is one such school that has a physics for engineers sequence (Physics 2) separate from physics for physics majors (Physics 4). See https://www.ucsd.edu/catalog/courses/PHYS.html .

6

Same with Harvard with Physics 16:

However, many, many physics and engineering majors takes the non-honors version and do just fine in college and in life. Not being able to get into the top-level physics class in college is not a reason that I, personally, would worry about.

7

Yes, the Stanford 60 sequence is the one we’d heard of. We hadn’t looked at Harvard’s sequence.

If he ends up in that type of situation, I suppose he’ll want to ask if the highest physics sequence is actually for theoretical physics majors, and most experimental types go for the 2nd highest sequence. I can see him as a computational or experimental physicist, but probably not as a theorist.

Thanks for the input!

8

BTW, @ucbalumnus do you happen to know the reasoning behind Cal changing from the H7A-B-C series to the new 5A-B-C series? Oh, I see that they put relativity in the first semester. Sounds a bit like Harvey Mudd starting students off with a 1/2 semester of special relativity.

9

Yes, it does look like a reordering of the topics covered. Also, the lab arrangement is different and is listed separately and starts in the second course in the sequence.

10

@Ynotgo Usually, in Honors Physics for freshmen, special relativity is covered in the first mechanics class. One of the reasons, besides the fact that it is really “mechanics”, is that magnetic fields are introduced in the second (E&M) class as a transformation of electric fields in a moving reference frame (c.f. Purcell E&M). Engineers (other than engineering physics) usually do not need as in depth a treatment and may be just lightly exposed (or not at all) to special relativity in the regular Physics for Engineers course.

11

Thanks for your previous help, @ucbalumnus, @xraymancs, @skieurope

Updating this thread a bit. He got confirmed to take Linear Algebra at the UC this fall quarter. He is also choosing one of the following courses (times all overlap slightly, so only one can be selected):

  1. Automata and Formal Languages (upper division CS class that builds on Discrete Math)
  2. Newtonian Mechanics (UCSB College of Creative Studies -- 1st physics class for CCS physics majors)
  3. Geomaterials (upper division Geology class with chemistry and memorizing)

He will have to get permission to register from whatever professor, so needs to figure out the priority order in which to talk with the professors. He will need to explain why his experience qualifies him to take any of these classes. No guarantee he can get into any particular one, but there is space. (The CCS program is highly regarded, but probably only well known in California physics circles. We do know HS students who have been allowed to take CCS math classes.)

His favorite from looking at old homework sets is the Automata CS class, because he can do the first few problems now but would need to learn a lot beyond that. My tendency is to let him take whatever he wants. However, I wonder since this seems essentially like 2 math classes and no science class (though he’ll be taking 2 periods of an engineering capstone project at the high school, but he has been asked to do mostly programming).

DH is still against him taking the start of the physics sequence for physics majors, because he worries that when he goes away to college S might not be in the same first physics class as the other physics majors, and so won’t be included in friendships and study groups. DS says the homework sets for the class look interesting, but not all that difficult compared to the homework sets at the summer program he recently attended. Old syllabi imply that tests are oral exams.

He decided against the Astronomy course that was previously his choice for a 2nd class, because he just returned from a summer program where they calculated asteroid orbits from their own observations, and the past homework and tests from the UC Intro Astronomy class are not at all challenging compared to the math, physics, and astronomy learned in that summer program.

12

UCSB Physics CS31-36 is a six quarter (two academic year sequence). Ordinarily, an advanced student taking college courses should be fine, but the fact that frosh/soph physics courses order the topics differently at different schools may mean that if he later attends a non-UCSB school (or UCSB in non-CCS) that the courses he has taken at UCSB may not align exactly with the courses at the new school.

UCSB Earth Science 114 or Computer Science 138 are best thought of as elective courses; if he chooses one, he can choose whatever is more interesting to him, and which he can get into.

UCSB CS 138 seems to be open to computer science or computer engineering majors only; would be be able to get into the course?
https://www.cs.ucsb.edu/education/courses/cmpsc-138

13

The UCSB sequence is pretty standard, the first two courses 31 and 32 are classical mechanics and waves; 33 is more waves, thermodynamics, and relativity; 34 and 35 are electromagnetism; and 36 is modern physics and quantum.

Compare that to the sequence at my school, Illinois Tech, which is on the semester system. In three semesters for engineering students, we cover Mechanics (1st semester); Electromagnetism (2nd semester); Thermodynamics, Relativity, and Modern Physics (3rd semester). For physics majors, we have a two year sequence that starts with the first two courses being the same and then the 3rd semester being Thermo, Optics, Special Relativity (in much more detail) and the 4th semester being Modern Physics, intro to Quantum and a survey of Nuclear Physics, Solid State, Astrophysics and Particle Physics. UIUC’s thee semester sequence is nearly identical with our first 3 semesters for physics majors.

The order is not exactly the same but the content is likely to be very similar. I looked at the course web page for 31 in the Fall of 2013 and it seems like the textbooks being used are pretty standard ones. If he goes to another university, most of the credit will transfer.

14

Just an update–

He got permission to take CS 138 Automata and Formal Languages from the professor. He decided that was the class he most wanted to take, so he will be taking that and Linear Algebra. (MATH 4A with 600 students!)

Thanks for your advice.