There is a wealth of information on this site with so many wonderful parents and kids that have so much knowledge about different schools and their programs.
My DD is interested in medicine and will be following the pre-med track to the college she ends up going. From all the research and information that I find it seems that med schools don’t necessarily care for which college you got your undergraduate degree but rather the GPA and MCAT scores along with the ECs one does to make them a good candidate.
Can someone please compare these two schools and let me know the pros and cons of both regarding their pre-med track. Which school in your opinion would my D have a better chance of getting a high GPA as well as align her for successfully getting into a good med school?
Note: she has been accepted to Pitt and is hopeful of getting into Temple too.
What does she want to major in?
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Probably in some liberal arts subject (not sure yet). She says I am going to be studying Biology all of my med school career and pre-med track so would like to major in something non-biology. Her two cousins who are currently in great med schools did liberal arts majors along with pre-med track.
She is strong in sciences (got a 5 in AP biology and calculus)
Assuming that your daughter will enjoy in-state tuition rates, both are good choices for a pre-med student although Pitt is very well respected for opportunities afforded those students interested in pursing a career in medicine.
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Both of these schools will prepare students for medical school. They have good academics and pre-health advising, and ample opportunity for ECs. If price is the same, I lean towards Pitt. Does your D prefer one school over the other?
One thing to look into is whether the school provide committee letters for all students who meet the requirements which include things like taking the classes that meet med school requirements, and having a relationship with and/or interviewing with the pre-health advising office.
Some schools will only give committee letters to the relatively strong students (so they keep their med school acceptance stats high). I don’t think either of these schools weed out to that degree, but I would make sure by contacting the pre-health advising office.
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Pitt has over 3x the rate of students applying for medical school. 343 applications / 19k undergraduates vs 153 applications / 29k undergraduates. Penn State has 257/40k. I would start looking at the competitiveness of pre med classes at Pitt.
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Kids who have visited both from my high school tend to prefer Pitt. It’s in a better section of the city. (Respective cities and not just pre-med wannabies.)
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She is very smart to plan to major in anything she loves, and can do well in. Both schools will have lots of majors. Both have affiliated medical centers. I know the neighborhood around Temple, and unless it has changed DRASTICALLY (which I believe it has not), it’s not safe. Pitt is also inner city, but it’s close to Carnegie Mellon, and has nice neighborhoods nearby. It’s also more highly ranked than Temple.
I believe that you are mistaken, that med schools don’t consider what school a person did their undergrad at. I had good MCATs, but had had a very bad freshman year. After that, I did well. I got into every med school I applied to - albeit all mid-level med schools, even though I think my overall GPA might have been only a 3.6, and I think I had a C in Organic Chem. I think that they considered the difference between the competitiveness of the undergrad institution in making their choices.
She would probably find the premed courses competitive at either institution, but possibly more so at Pitt because admission is more selective. Me? Between the two, I’d choose Pitt, based upon it being a more selective school, I think the area is better (a long time ago, when I went for an interview there, it was most definitely a much better area than that around Temple), and I believe that the immediate area around Pitt should offer more to her than the area around Temple. Yes, Philly as a whole offers more than Pittsburgh as a whole, but leaving and returning to Temple, you have to go through some pretty bad areas. The reality is, most college students find what they’re looking for on campus, and don’t leave campus all that much.
Another consideration is that many people who start out premed, wind up going in other directions. If she were not premed, would she then definitely choose Pitt over Temple?
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Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. D has also been accepted to UVA (in-state for us), Fordham, Clemson and still waiting to hear back from a few more schools. However her preference is an urban setting that would give her the hospital volunteer and research opportunities.
Pitt has offered her a 5k merit scholarship and we visited the campus during COVID. Our first impression of the area around was good. My only concern is will the pre-med track be too difficult knowing that a lot of the schools weed out kids the first few semester. She has really good study habits and works hard to get good grades. However I don’t want her to go through too much anxiety to maintain those grades. I don’t want her burning out. Pre-Covid she volunteered regularly at our local hospital and enjoyed it a lot.
She should go to UVa. Best school she’s gotten into, and best value by far, plus her degree will be from a prestigious institution. She should major in whatever she loves, and can do very well in, and get her undergrad degree in that from U Va. If she wants to, she can get involved in research or clinical while there. Then, after she’s done at U Va, she has a sudden “epiphany” that she wants med school, and does all her premeds pronto at a non-competitive Virginia state college over the year after she is done with U Va. Chem with lab in the two summer semesters. Plus a year of Bio, Organic, and Physics over the next year. She should have already done the required English and maybe Statistics either in high school or at U Va. Then study like hell for the MCATS over the next summer, take the MCATs in late summer, and apply in the early to mid fall for med school, while also working at some clinically relevant job to demonstrate interest.
Many people take a year off between college and med school, so that the application process isn’t happening during their senior year. She will have one more year plus a summer of school (living at home, in-state tuition), plus the application year, during which she should work at something she likes, either clinical or research or both. So yes, it’s one more year, but she also gets to study what she loves at U Va, and enjoy her college years, and not wash out of the process because she cannot take the incredibly competitive pre-med grind at U Va.
This way, she gets her degree from U Va, with a high GPA in what she loves the best, has a wonderful time in college learning and maturing, becoming the “liberally” educated person that med schools like. Then she gets a high GPA in her science classes at her inexpensive local state U, where it will be far less competitive, and she’ll be by then a pro at college-level studying.
I would not have her give up U Va at in-state tuition because of the likelihood of getting better grades in premed classes at a less competitive university. She will meet her peers at U Va. Sure there are smart kids at Temple. But overall, the peer group at U Va will be a better match for her.
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Hmm you have just given us another path to really think about and decide on the best route to take.
She has taken 13 AP courses during HS and would probably get credit for about 8-9 courses even before entering college. This should help her graduate a semester or two earlier saving her time to take that extra year to do the science courses required to take MCAT at a less competitive school (in our case maybe George Mason). Once she finishes undergraduate can she just take admission to GM just for those additional classes that she would need or would she take those at a community college (NOVA)?
Definitely NOT at a community college. Community college classes are at a lower level than those at 4 year colleges and universities, and the med schools know it, plus she won’t learn enough to be ready to prep for the MCATs. Any four year public college will offer Chem, Bio, Physics, and Organic, all with lab. In the spring of her senior year at U Va, she would apply to whatever cheap 4 yr institution is closest and easiest, and take these classes beginning that summer (assuming she wants this path). Honestly, I would not rush her through U Va. Let her have the full four years there. It’s in-state for you guys, and it’s a wonderful institution. Unless she’s got a rocket on her, is in an incredible hurry to get through, why have her race through U Va?
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Going to UVA would be fine (though it pains me to say that as a VT grad!), but I’d do more research before assuming she’ll be fine with her med school applications completing pre-med courses at a “lesser” school due to the ease of them there.
Med school is super competitive now - far more than it has been in the past. When we went to specific med school admission events held by med school admissions (for high schoolers) we were told they look for those trying the “easy” route and dismiss them. Trying for “easy” is not a trait they are hoping to find. They want the kids who willingly tackle hard and succeed. Med school is tough. They want students who are able to handle it. Two different places told us this (one was Pitt).
They said they differentiate between those who truly decide they want the med school route after having graduated and just need to get the courses vs those who start off choosing that path. (Same with those who had community college classes - start with them as the “easy” route and expect to get dismissed. Have them because of finances or afterward due to not knowing ahead of time what route one wanted can be allowed.) I guess one can lie (have that “sudden” epiphany) and hope to be believed - that would be an ethical choice folks would have to make.
My med school lad took on the challenges, succeeded, and still had a blast during his 5 years of college (4 and Take 5 from U Rochester). There are plenty of others like him.
FWIW, it’s fine to just go to GM if that’s your preference. Med schools accept students from pretty much anywhere. It doesn’t have to be a Top School. Only go there if one has the foundation to be competitive from high school. They are looking for traits combined with scores/GPA. Those traits exist everywhere. The two places told us “trying for easy” wasn’t one of them. I seriously doubt they are the only two with that view.
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D is leaning towards Pitt or Temple. We were trying to convince her to major in some biology related field (Molecular Biology, Neuro Science, Biomedical Eng) so incase she drops the idea of medicine she would still have job prospects. She is keen on pursuing medicine but insists that she wants to major in something different (Anthropology, psychology) as she has a lifetime of studying to do in biology once she gets into medicine. I am confident at either colleges she will carve out her path.
Major really doesn’t matter for med school, but for any Plan B it can be tough getting higher paying jobs in Bio related fields due to how many Bio majors are out there. I know students who have done it though - and done well getting jobs with almost any major. The key is being good at what one does as well as having terrific people skills.
Majoring in what one likes is good for med school because students tend to do well in subjects they enjoy.
One parent asked about majors in one of the sessions we attended. The response was essentially, “We want doctors who can stick with something at a deeper level and can talk about more than just medicine.” At my son’s interviews for med school and residencies they always talked about other things on his application - not his Bio (or whatever) knowledge. He did research with linguistics (kids learning language). He was/is a juggler. He loves to read and travel. He did Take 5 at Rochester. He was a dorm RA. He danced. They asked a lot about those things and more like it. His grades and scores attested to his knowledge/foundation.
She needs to do well in her major and be an interesting person - then do well on the MCAT. Have you seen the threads where I’ve posted UR’s School of Medicine Class Profiles? I’m certain many med schools are like them. Be someone they can write about.
I’ll post one again in case you haven’t, but they’re essentially a template year after year. You can google for others or find them on other Pre-med threads I’ve posted on.
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Biology majors tend to have poor job prospects at the bachelor’s degree level. Biomedical engineering majors may do better, but not as well as some other engineering majors.
For the UVA class of 2019, the results by major:
https://career.virginia.edu/UniversityofVirginia-Class-2019
Major Working GradSch Seeking Median Pay
All 65% 18% 14% $65,000
Biology 43% 29% 28% $30,000
Human Biology 100% $32,240
Neuroscience 46% 54% $35,360
Biomed Eng 62% 34% 4% $71,000
Chem Eng 82% 18% $72,000
Civ Eng 67% 24% 9% $64,000
Computer Sci 90% 10% $99,000
Elec Eng 79% 21% $74,500
Mech Eng 83% 9% 9% $74,500
Chemistry 35% 50% 15% $30,000
Mathematics 72% 28% $74,500
Physics 73% 27% $43,730 (strange that none listed as working...)
Statistics 69% 21% 10% $70,000
Anthropology 48% 19% 33% $33,460
Economics 73% 14% 13% $62,500
Government 50% 29% 21% $42,000
History 42% 32% 25% $41,000
Psychology 45% 26% 25% $39,375
Sociology 80% 20% $46,000
Art History 43% 57% $45,000
Art, Studio 43% 57% $38,000
Classics 57% 43% $47,200
English 42% 32% 26% $48,508
Music 50% 50% $33,280
Philosophy 100% $65,000
Majoring in biology for the job prospects is likely to produce the exact opposite of the desired result.
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Great information to keep in mind. Thank you for sharing.
wow so much information for us parents to consider. Thank You!
I agree that medical schools look for a lot more than just high GPAs and MCAT scores. They might get you the interview but what makes you stand out from others is the key to getting the final acceptance. Both my nephews had very different and interesting backgrounds that landed them admissions to great schools. One volunteered for years at Hospice old homes and other worked at Homeless shelters.
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I feel for students who do so much to try to get into med school and still get denied. I expect our country is losing out on a lot of good doctors by needing so much on a successful application. One of the guys talking at a session was the head of the medical school. He told us if he’d been trying to apply now (vs in his day) there’s no way he’d make it in. He said he’d be lucky to be the janitor there… and yet, he did well enough to make it to the top of a top program in the nation.
Yet, if one wants to get in, that’s what needs to be done today, so go in eyes wide open - then add in a few prayers. Best wishes to your daughter.
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