<p>(Xiggi, I rest my case.)</p>
<p>Nightingale asked:
"-When did I say I would not be applying for need based aid? I threw out some figures, not my own, never said they were."
First, I DID understand that the income figures you gave were examples and NOT your own level of income. Howver, the thrust of your thread seems to focus on wanting to only pursue schools that give substantial merit aid (for instance, "peanut level aid" won't do). In fact, your thread is about coming up with a list of schools that offer no Merit Aid or too little Merit Aid, which implies that these are ones you wish to avoid. When others have brought up that sometimes expensive schools who meet 100% of need based aid can net you a lower overall cost than a less expensive school with worse aid, it appeared that you were only focused on Merit aid and I inferred that you would not be applying for need based aid at all. In fact, in the example about Smith, I was explaining that while the Stride Scholarship (merit) may not have been a huge amount of money, that my D ALSO got some need based aid/scholarships, so every bit helps. I assumed, forgive me, that you were not interested in need based aid based on your posts so far. </p>
<p>You further asked:
"Why don't you drop the atitude?"
Sorry, but I feel that I try hard to post in a courteous manner and don't see attitude in what I am trying to convey. I hardly think it is polite for you to be calling me on it when I have four years of posts on these forums and you have come in as a newbie asking for help and people here, including myself, have tried to be helpful, while also voicing our opinions. I wasn't calling you on "attitude" though I think it was over the top today to start a thread complaining that you got "invalid" when trying to open this thread and immediately jumping to a conclusion that CC censored your topic which it doesn't do for topics like this. Then you accused CC of having an agenda and also being aligned with the CB! Seems like some attitude early on as a pariticpant when people here are trying to be helpful. We may not all agree on your strategy or "lists" and are free to say so, if done so with courtesy. Please refrain from attacking me. Keep to the topics at hand, and do not critique someone's attitudes. If you notice someone breaking a posting rule, report it. I haven't broken any rules here, but merely voiced my opinions and experiences. Further, you likely do not realize this, but I am a College Counselor, and while I was relating personal experiences with my "parent hat" on, I deal with college admissions in my work. </p>
<p>On behalf of CC, as well as parent to parent, welcome to CC's discussion forums. I hope you get a lot out of the experience. There are many knowledgeable paernts (and students) who particpate here.</p>
<p>"When did I say I would not be applying for need based aid?"</p>
<p>Again, forgive me for making an inference that you were not seeking need based aid. Besides this thread which appears to focus on not wanting to apply to any schools unlesss they offer good Merit Aid, even though Blossom and others have explained that some very selective schools are very good with providing 100% of need based aid and should not be overlooked....I noticed your child posted a year ago explaining that you do not qualify for need based aid. That is why I inferred that you may be in a different situation than we are because we did qualify for need based aid, though are far from low income. </p>
<p>04-23-2005, 03:21 PM #1
Nightingale
Junior Member</p>
<p>Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 108
Lost in New England
I don't qualify for "need based" aid. People tell my parents yearly college costs are negotiable and even without a financial need they should not expect to pay 100% of the advertised prices. 3.8 GPA, Sat 1380, numerous sports and vol. activity. I consider myself a good candidate for "non-need" based aid (merit) .. but does that really exist??? Are my parents really looking at 40K a year for a good private college? What's the real story?</p>
<p>University of Virginia</p>
<p>Nightingale....here is something else you have not mentioned. Many colleges that offer merit aid REQUIRE that students file the FAFSA and sometimes the Profile as well at least for the Freshman year application. In your view...does this mean that the aid is not merit aid?? Also, if you are not considering awards in the arts as merit aid (at schools that are 100% schools for the arts) then you need to add to your list all conservatories and schools of art. Conservatories award their merit aid on the basis of musical audition and nothing else. Art schools (e.g. Pratt) award theirs based on portfolio review. Since you are looking at "academics" only (a very narrow view of merit aid, in my humble opinion), all conservatories and schools of art should be eliminated. Also, there are a ton of schools where the merit aid (not need based) is capped at $5000 or less (see my previous post about Siena). Add all of those schools also. I'm sorry, but one of my kids has a performance MERIT aid award at a major university. It IS merit aid. And my other kiddo received a only $6000 for the year. In your view NEITHER of my kids received merit aid...this is simply your opinion, not fact. Merit aid is merit aid regardless of the amount or the cost of attendance. And as stated above...every penny counts. There are schools that give full merit aid packages to highly desirable (in their view) students. Perhaps a thread that tells about those schools would be more worthwhile than a thread that lists schools that CLEARLY give merit aid...but not enough to meet your criteria (a totally different story). BTW...using YOUR criteria...add Santa Clara University to your list. They only give 40 scholarships over $20,000 per year and those are only awarded to students accepted with distinction. Others get much less. School costs over $40K per year. Using your criteria...this school does NOT offer merit aid. Ridiculous.</p>
<p>comment from the peanut gallery ... it seems to me trying to force schools into a yes/no merit/no-merit categories is creating a lot of the angst in this string which could be very beneficial to folks if it gets regrounded in providing details about schools. Perhaps creating more than 2 categories would make this work better
-no merit aid
-merit aid for athletics
-merit aid for arts
-merit aid; a few students get big bucks (lots = 50% of cost or more?)
-merit aid; lots of students get aid but usually not a lot (not a lot = <$5000/yr?)
-merit aid; a fair number of kids get fairly good bucks </p>
<p>This might help ... and I beleive nightingale is only interested in this last group</p>
<p>Yes thumper, I conceded this point earlier by dropping Julliard from the "no merit" list. Please feel free to start a thread regarding schools that give full merit aid to a select number of students. I'll look forward to reading it and thank you for your input.</p>
<p>Nightingale, Soozie doesn't speak for everyone but she represents a huge percentage of us who don't want to see the (mostly) civil tone of this board appropriated. There are other college message boards where posters regularly engage in gratuitously personal attacks on each other..... most of us here appreciate the forum for learning that we have here and respect each other's different approaches.</p>
<p>We try and reserve our anger for the truly important issues in life.... bed-risers, the Xiggi method of SAT prep, whether the number of Pell grant recipients reflects a colleges commitment to diversity, etc. (tongue in cheek). Please don't react with hostility every time someone disagrees with you. It makes it hard to extract the point you are trying to make when we have to wade through your sarcasm.</p>
<p>There are lots of parents here who are trying, in good faith, as I'm sure you are, to pick a list of colleges which their kids can get accepted to, which they can afford, and which offer the kind of academic environment where their kids can thrive. Several of the posters here are trying to point out that your methodology.... while it may work great for you.... is going to lead to hearthache for other families who adopt it without understanding the pitfalls in your approach.</p>
<p>So to repeat..... don't assume your kid will get a great merit offer even at a great merit school. Don't assume that you're ineligible for Fin Aid unless you apply. Don't assume that your kid will get a merit award if you don't at least apply for need based aid. Don't assume that a first year come-on scholarship will be offered every four years unless you get it in writing. Don't assume that your val with the perfect scores is going to get a 3.6 every semester at college, especially if he or she is taking Organic Chemistry or Differential Equations-- if this means losing the merit scholarship which makes this school possible, your kid may be in for major heartbreak or a nervous breakdown. Don't assume that a need-only school won't or can't find a way to work with you if they really want your child. Finally, if it takes your kid 5 or 6 years to graduate (which is the norm for a very large percentage of the college aged population) and you're paying tuition, even at a heavily discounted rate, you may end up out of pocket tens of thousands in the hole vs. where you'd have been at a more expensive school which works like the dickens to get most kids out in four years. If you pay a discounted rate Freshman year and your kid has to transfer because the school is cheap but a terrible fit.... and those credits don't transfer... you'll be ruing the day you heard the term "merit award".</p>
<p>Rant over.</p>
<p>I think Nightingale's purpose was pretty clear: Exploring options for smart kids who aren't Brady Quinn or Van Cliburn winners. Having a general idea of which desirable colleges are not likely to give out merit $$$$ is extremely helpful. It focuses the family on reality. You begin examining your willingness to pay any price for the dream college (like soozievt) or gently tell your kid that $$$ will absolutely be a factor when deciding where to go. I think many kids will still send out a few financial "reach" applications. And maybe they'll be pleasantly surprised. But I think it's a necessary part of the planning process to develop an awareness of both financial and academic fit to avoid disappointment.</p>
<p>Half the arguments here are over semantics. Yes, we all know that achieving a fabulous level of musicianship is a meritorious achievement. And it might very well get some merit $$$ for the kid. But that's irrelevant to the vast majority of kids & parents choosing colleges. If your kid is not a recruited athlete, do you really care if the scholarship is classified as merit or not? Or the likelihood of earning one?</p>
<p>Thank you, Blossom. Your post sums it up nicely. A courteous tone is what we strive for here. Differences of opinions are very welcome. It is about how one goes about discussing those. You are right that many people starting out the college process will visit this thread due to the subject heading. While one person has described her approach, it is perfectly appropriate and even necessary, that some who have already been through the college admissions with one/two/three kids, points out other approaches or the pitfalls or misinformation in the original approach. I think everyone's posts are in good faith and meant to be helpful. When someone has a different opinion or disagrees with some approach or misinformation, they ought to say so. There is no need to get upset over it or be sarcastic or attack those who think differently. I'm grateful that there are parents and students here who are long past the admissions process who are willing to try to help those who are starting out. They have learned a lot along the way and their experiences are worth listening to. I think your summatiion of the points about merit aid are spot on and I hope those looking into this take home those points.</p>
<p>I'm sure everyone agrees that people on this board should use a courteous tone......</p>
<p>Posters should treat all posters equally. In other words, if some old-timer posters exhibit sarcastic, biting tones, then they should be called on it by other posters. It seems the older posters, because people know them well, are cut a lot of slack, while new posters are jumped on for nothing more than mild irritation.</p>
<p>For example, I don't know the OP, but I have not noticed anything in his/her tone that comes even close to the arrogant, sarcastic tone of many older posters.</p>
<p>To be fair, I think the board would benefit overall if everyone were treated equally.</p>
<p>My above comment is in response to comments by soosievt and blossom, so I believe they are relevant to the discussion.</p>
<p>the merit list that 3togo suggested is also complicated by-is merit aid offered to students who have average stats?
Do their stats have to be significantly higher than other students/applicants at the college?
Or is having a couple things that are "hooks", like comng from a state the other side of country, combined with strong academic record enough?</p>
<p>SOme of the womens colleges in particular seem to give generous aid.
Virtually everyone I know who is attending a womens college has a nice financial package, which was a huge incentive in their decision to attend ( which I assume was the point) :)</p>
<p>I agree with hereshoping's post. I also agree that Nightingale's list does serve a purpose to many potential applicants. I wish we knew more about the "hidden" truths to merit aid at some of the schools that child #1 applied to. There are some very high achieving candidates who do not qualify for need based aid, and such a list should absolutely be considered as part of the college application process for some of these applicants. </p>
<p>We didn't know that schools (like Duke) known to have "great merit" awards actually have such awards available to less than 1% of their applicants! Nor did we know that many academic "merit" programs actually consider financial need, residency and ethicity in to their evaluation process for their advertised academic "merit" awards. </p>
<p>I applaud Nightingale for developing this concept. It may be helpful to other posters.</p>
<p>"the merit list that 3togo suggested is also complicated by-is merit aid offered to students who have average stats?
Do their stats have to be significantly higher than other students/applicants at the college?
Or is having a couple things that are "hooks", like comng from a state the other side of country, combined with strong academic record enough?"</p>
<p>That is a very good question to be asking! We found that at some schools a few hooks that probably fill the school's agenda (mission) resulted in some merit aid. At another school where we expected merit aid b/c a large % of students receive it, and school was very much a safety, S got nothing. S did show interest by visiting twice. The second time he sat in on classes and ate lunch there. I think that perhaps too much interest was shown, and it resulted in only loans offered as financial aid (no merit aid). I was very surprised at the lack of any grant money.</p>
<p>Okay folks here's the latest update. Remember, as many have pointed out many places on the list do not give merit, but they do give out a great amount of NEED BASED aid. So if your D or S has the stats and your EFC is relatively low .. go for it.</p>
<p>NO MERIT AID</p>
<p>All the Ivies
Amherst
Northwestern
Tufts
Barnard
Colgate
MIT
New England College
Saint Johns
Wesleyen
Vassar
Williams
Art Center of Design
Bates
Bowdoin
Bryn Mawr
College of the Atlantic
Colby College
Connecticut
Pine Manor
Reed College
Sarah Lawrence College
Springfield College
Trinity (CT0
Wellesley
Wheaton</p>
<p>NOMINAL MERIT AID</p>
<p>Smith
Boston College
Lafayette
Union
Hamilton
Chicago
Dickinson
Gettysburg
Duke</p>
<p>"Nominal" refers to the overall amount given on average per student. But, as has been pointed out, a FEW OUTSTANDING students may recieve very large amounts of aid at these institutions. Again, this is a work in progress and I'm learning more each day. Several places have been removed, others added and some moved from one list to another.</p>
<p>I would add Wake Forest to the nominal merit aid category. The hard part is that they ask for a VERY involved scholarship application (as opposed to considering everyone who applies). They have a different mix of need and merit each year and THIS year, we were told that most scholarships were need based. We received nothing - it's hard when they make you go through all that and then change the mix each year. From our perspective, Lehigh, Dickinson and Gettysburg were generous with merit aid as our son had stellar stats (GPA and SAT).</p>
<p>Toneranger, you bring up a good point. Some schools require additional applications for scholarships, whereas others consider you for Merit Aid by merely being an applicant. </p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, my kids applied for financial aid by submitting the FAFSA and in some cases the CSS Profile and we had no idea if we'd get any but filed and we indeed receive FA for both kids. However, naively, we did not realize that any of their schools offered Merit Aid. My kids filed NO separate scholarship applications to any schools. It turned out that every school that offers Merit Aid, gave them Merit Awards (not to be confused with the need based aid). For older D who was opting for very selective schools, the only schools on her list that offer Merit aid were Smith and Lehigh. Like you say, the merit aid at Lehigh was very generous and required no extra work to receive. It was a very pleasant surprise to get. My other D applied to BFA programs at colleges and universities. Each school offered her a merit award. She did nothing extra to get these either. So, for those who like to make lists with various criteria of what should be on a list, one might wish to discern between schools offering merit aid that require additional apps and interviews for scholarships and those who evaluate you for merit aid by simply being an applicant. I believe it is beneficial to submit the FAFSA at schools in any case. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>on top of the schools that will tweak your EFC if they really want you, there are also schools that will expect outside scholarships to reduce their loans/grants & there are schools that will allow your outside scholarships to reduce teh family contribution.</p>
<p>What if I receive an outside scholarship?
Colgate allows a student to receive the full benefit of an outside award and will reduce a student's loan and/or employment eligibility and family contribution by the full amount of the outside scholarship. Entitlement awards from state or federal sources as well as tuition subsidies based on parents' employment are not covered by this policy and reduce Colgate Grant dollar for dollar. The combination of outside awards and financial aid from Colgate cannot exceed our cost of attendance.</p>
<p>Just to make it more complicated ;)</p>
<p>Colgate also has alumni awards that aren't need based that are given to upperclassmen. My niece who did quite well at Colgate was awarded a different one every year.
Her sister however, was not as academic of a student, but ironically was awarded even more money, possibly because she was an athlete?</p>