Please Advise!! Penn vs. Wellesley!!

<p>"Do we need to compare the alumni from each school?"</p>

<p>Yes, by all means compare them, right here. Just make sure that, for Penn, you list only WOMEN, and only those WOMEN who graduated from Penn's Arts & Sciences college. As undergraduates only.That way you are comparing apples to apples.</p>

<p>Wellesely people can make their own list, but it would certainly include: Madame Chiang Kai-shek, Hillary Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Nora Ephron, Ali MacGraw, Cokie Roberts, Diane Sawyer.</p>

<p>So by all means Columbiahopeful! please list here the noteworthy women alums of Penn's undergraduate College of Arts & Sciences only, and we can all compare as you suggested.</p>

<p>"all of the statistics favor Penn."</p>

<p>The statistics you posted indicate to me that there would be a huge overlap in the capabilties of your fellow students at these two schools, to such extent that this should clearly be a minor consideration at best.</p>

<p>Moreover, do the Penn stats you posted apply only to women who attend Penn's College of Arts & Sciences? Or is Wharton also included? Is Penn's Engineering College also included? Are men attending Penn's Arts & Sciences college also included? If so, you are not comparing apples to apples, in any event.</p>

<p>"And Penn has a far better reputation where it matters...."</p>

<p>That is by no means clear to me based on my own business experience, as I posted previously.</p>

<p>Visit both, spend an overnight. I went to Wellesley, found the atmosphere suffocating. Sure, I had a room overlooking the lake. More time was spent discussing weekend dates etc than worldly affairs. Boston was an hour away. The weekly Friday and Sat night buses to Cambridge felt like the meat market trolley. Transferred to Penn as a soph, found my niche (was both premed bio and music), loved it. Having grad students and potential grad class interaction was a big ++.</p>

<p>money, ur so quick to split Penn up into schools. Why I am not surprised? You like to do that with Cornell. However, with Columbia, you are not so willing to separate Barnard and Columbia. hmm....</p>

<p>Your biases are clearly shown through your posts. I have seen other posts by you praising Barnard, and all girls' schools for that matter. That is your personal preference. However, with that said, I think Penn is not only stronger academically but offers more social opportunities as well. In addition, I would bet that 99.5 percent of Americans cannot even spell the name of Wellesley if asked to do so and around 99.9 percent of Americans could not name the city or state it is located in.</p>

<p>Wellesley notable alumnae:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wellesley_College_people%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wellesley_College_people&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Virginia Abernethy (1955) (anthropologist)
Harriet Stratemeyer Adams (1914) (author of Nancy Drew series, pen name Carolyn Keene)
Madeleine Albright (1959) (former U.S. Secretary of State)
Katharine Lee Bates (1880) (author of the words to the anthem America the Beautiful)
Carol Bly (1951) (short story author, essayist)
Jane Bolin LL.B. (1928) First African-American woman to become a judge)
Annie Jump Cannon (1884) (astronomer)
Madame Chiang Kai-shek (1917) (former First Lady of the Republic of China)
Hillary Rodham Clinton (1969) (U.S. Senator; Former First Lady of the U.S.)
Ophelia Dahl (1994) (director of Partners In Health, daughter of children's author Roald Dahl)
Diane Mott Davidson, attended but later transferred to another college. (mystery writer)
Marjory Stoneman Douglas (1912) (conservationist and writer)
Kimberly Dozier (1987) (journalist)
Persis Drell (Physicist)
Nora Ephron (1962) (movie screenplay writer: When Harry Met Sally...; Writer and Director: Sleepless in Seattle and You've Got Mail)
Susan Estrich(1974) Is a lawyer, professor, author, political operative, feminist advocate and commentator for Fox News.((author of Sex & Power)
Abigail Garner(1997) (author of Families Like Mine)
Carolyn Gold Heilbrun (1947) (professor of English literature at Columbia University, and mystery novelist under the name "Amanda Cross")
Helen Lefkowitz Horowitz (historian)
Carol E. Jackson (1973) (Chief Judge of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri)
Lois Juliber (1971) (Vice Chairman of Colgate-Palmolive)
Jean Kilbourne (educator)
Lisa Kleypas (1986) (novelist)
Judith Krantz (1948) (novelist)
Ali MacGraw (1960) (actress)
Judith Martin (1959) (newspaper columnist: Miss Manners)
Pamela Melroy (1983) (astronaut)
Anne W. Patterson (1971) (former Acting U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations)
Ruth Baker Pratt (congresswoman) first woman elected to Congress from New York (1929-33).
Reena Raggi, U.S. federal judge
Cokie Roberts (1964) (journalist)
Nayantara Pandit Sahgal (1947), novelist, niece of Jawaharlal Nehru and cousin of Indira Gandhi
Diane Sawyer (1967) (journalist, "Good Morning America")
Lynn Sherr (1963) (journalist)
Elisabeth Shue, attended but later transferred to Harvard (actress)
Michele J. Sison, American diplomat
Linda Wertheimer (1965) (journalist)
Patricia J. Williams (1972) (law professor at Columbia University, recipient of the MacArthur Foundation Fellowship, also known as the "genius award")
Bing Xin (1926) (Chinese poet, essayist, short-story writer) </p>

<p>Penn notable alumnae:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Pennsylvania_people%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Pennsylvania_people&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Hilary Putnam: Walter Beverly Pearson Professor of Modern Mathematics and Mathematical Logic at Harvard University
Judith Rodin: First woman president of an Ivy League university (University of Pennsylvania)
Elizabeth Banks - Actress, best known as kinky sex freak in The 40-Year-Old Virgin
Andrea Brody: Co-host of U.S. television's George Michael Sports Machine
Candice Bergen: Actress, best known as TV's Murphy Brown. (Attended, never graduated).
Pamela Day: Businesswoman and contestant of NBC reality show The Apprentice 2
Andrea Kremer: ESPN sports correspondent
Sari Locker: Television personality and author of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Amazing Sex
Andrea Mitchell: NBC Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent
Becki Newton: Actress, Amanda on Ugly Betty
Gina Phillips: actress (attended, never graduated)
Melissa Rivers (Birth name: Melissa Rosenberg): Actress and daughter of comedian Joan Rivers
Jennifer Su: (Birth name: Jennifer Tsou), Television anchor and radio presenter, Hong Kong and Thailand
Ivanka Trump: Supermodel, businesswoman, judge of NBC reality show The Apprentice 6, daughter of real estate mogul Donald Trump
Catherine Austin Fitts: CEO and Founder of Solari, Inc.
Geralyn Breig: former President, Godiva International
Sadie Tanner Alexander: First African-American woman to receive a Ph.D in the United States; first African-American woman to graduate from Penn Law; first black woman to be admitted to Pennsylvania Bar; Civil Rights activist; appointed to the Civil Rights Commission by President Harry S. Truman.
Shirley Franklin: Mayor of Atlanta
Ann Dore McLaughlin: former U.S. Secretary of Labor</p>

<p>I did not make this up.</p>

<p>the problem is that for Penn, you only put like around 10 percent of what was located on that webpage.</p>

<p>The problem is that colleges and universities DO NOT spend their endowments! They spend money in their operating budgets, which comes from revenue, as well as interest off of the endowment. Penn spends somewhere around $4.7 billion a year, just under half of which is payroll. So we'll say that Penn has $2.35 billion to spend on everything else. </p>

<p>Wellesley, according to its Board of Trustees, had, for FY2007, an operating Budget of only $205 million. Hence, it is probably Penn that has a lot more money to throw at its undergraduate liberal arts majors.</p>

<p>Also, what do you define as part of an undergraduate liberal arts education? I mean, upkeep of facilities, sposoring the research of the professors whose lab you'll be working in, all has to do with it. What criteria are you selecting?</p>

<p>As to your assertion that you'll find smaller classes and "friendlier professors" at Wellesley, you admitted yourself that you haven't been to either place recently, so you have no standing to make this argument. At Penn, I've found an amazing number of famous scholars who are also some of the best teachers, most generous people I have ever met.</p>

<p>And, the fact of the matter is, there are more renowned professors at a school like Penn, which DOES matter, especially when--in my experience, as I have said--they are also great people. Schools like Penn steal away faculty from schools like Wellesley all the time (which also speaks to the quality of the faculty at schools like Wellesley).</p>

<p>As to the argument about the dining halls.....What? As far as the classrooms go, almost all classrooms at Penn have the latest visual and communications technology installed permanently. Fisher-Bennet Hall, a large classroom building and home of the English Department just underwent a $25 million renovation and the results are impressive. Pretty much the only classrooms that do not have the rechnology permanently installed are the ones that are a hundred + years old and can't because it woud ruin their character.</p>

<p>I'm not knocking Wellesley, just arguing that your arguments in favor of it were misinformed, and seemed to me like ill-informed jingoism. Both are fantastic schools. </p>

<p>Visit the schools, and decide for yourself.</p>

<p>SarahsDad: are you sure all these Penn women were graduates of Penn's undergraduate college of arts & sciences? I bet a number of them weren't. Maybe law school, wharton, etc. Not that this list is better than Wellesley's as is.</p>

<p>Columbiahopeful! Yes I believe that, in the case of a multi-college university, depending on context it may be more appropriate to use the university as a whole for some purposes, yet other times it is more instructive to look at the component colleges individually. In this case, when comparing the opportunities available to a female interested in liberal arts, I believe it is most on point to consider the pool of undergraduate females there who major in liberal arts. Rather than jumble that in with, for example a bunch of men who are in the engineering college. OR whatever else is also there, and also irrelevant to this applicant, who will be attending the arts & sciences college presumably. When I applied to colleges, the stats for each of the individual colleges of multi-college universities such as Penn, Columbia and Cornell were broken out individually in the guide books; and by gender as well. I find that approach much more instructive for applicants who will be applying only to one particular college of a conglomerate university.</p>

<p>It is made even more appropriate when comparing to a liberal arts college that doesn't even have these other irrelevant other divisions around. Stats intermingling/ confusion is not an option for the comparison school.</p>

<p>It is particularly critical to compare apples to apples when considering the accomplishments of alumni. Because frankly, for most of this country's history women were more likely to be marrying some mover & shaker and staying home than doing the moving & shaking themselves. The past accomplishments of Wellesley's alumnae can only be appropriately viewed in this context. The only reasonable and fair comparison is vs. Penn's women alumnae of the College of Arts & Sciences. Apples to apples.</p>

<p>If you would like to discuss specifically what I posted someplace else, about some other schools that are not the topic of this thread, by all means make your specific comments on those other threads, where they are perhaps pertinent.</p>

<p>I am actually not some huge fan of women's colleges as a blanket matter. I consider each school individually. I've a daughter who is heading to Barnard, but that was her choice not mine. And her decision was not because it was a women's college. My other daughter is at a coed school. I think there are good points & bad points about each. With respect to Wellesley I've pointed out some of each on this very thread. My D1, in the end, chose her school over Wellesley.</p>

<p>D1 was turned off, rightly or wrongly,at the Penn info session by a perceived overt pre-professional focus; not her thing. Did not apply. Penn did not have what D2 was most interested in; a non-starter for her. Neither did Wellesley.</p>

<p>Penn has higher SAT scores - but that is largely because of Wharton.
Wellesley has a reputation for focusing on undergrads - but that's all they do.</p>

<p>Both are awesome institutions, the Ivy people can't believe a LAC could compete, and the LAC people don't believe in universities. The truth lies somewhere inbetween. Both are amazing institutions, and it really comes down to fit. If you are cool with going to a womens college, I would recommend Wellesley, but if you are afraid that you couldn't really handle that, go to Penn.</p>

<p>Penn - awesome in most every way.
Wells - awesome in most every way.</p>

<p>Congratulations.</p>

<p>oh God just go visit the schools. A few girls at my school got into Wellesley and were turned off by being in a all girl environment. You needa know if you feel comfortable/are okay with going to a school that is all girls. Not only that you have to look at the campuses. If you're there for 4 or more years you'll need to like the school and the area it is around. Penn and Wellesley academically are awesome and only nit pick details like "alumni" number and things of that nature set them apart. Visit them, see where you can not only learn the most but be happy while you're doing it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The problem is that colleges and universities DO NOT spend their endowments! They spend money in their operating budgets, which comes from revenue, as well as interest off of the endowment.

[/quote]
Endowment per student is a commonly used measure of institutional wealth; in fact, even Penn uses it. According to [url=<a href="http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/volumes/v53/n28/uc.html%5DPenn%5B/url"&gt;http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/volumes/v53/n28/uc.html]Penn[/url&lt;/a&gt;], their endowment per student is about $250,000; Penn says that this puts them in 65th place nationwide. For comparison, [url=<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._colleges_and_universities_by_endowment%5DWellesley%5B/url"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._colleges_and_universities_by_endowment]Wellesley[/url&lt;/a&gt;] has about $600,000 per student, and ranks about 15th nationwide.

[quote]
Penn spends somewhere around $4.7 billion a year, just under half of which is payroll. So we'll say that Penn has $2.35 billion to spend on everything else.

[/quote]
Check your stats. According to [url=<a href="http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/volumes/v53/n28/uc.html%5DPenn%5B/url"&gt;http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/volumes/v53/n28/uc.html]Penn[/url&lt;/a&gt;], the total budget is indeed $4.7 billion, but $2.3 billion goes to the Health System. The total budget for academics is $2.4 billion, including payroll. General university overhead is about $0.7 billion, leaving $1.7 billion for the Schools. </p>

<p>The School of Arts and Sciences gets 18% of that, which is about $300 million. Given that SAS has some 8,500 undergraduates and grad students, their per-student expenditures appear lower than $200 million for 2,300 undergrads at Wellesley. In fairness, some percentage of the $700 million budget for university overhead should be allocated to SAS, but I still suspect Wellesley will come out ahead. </p>

<p>
[quote]
At Penn, I've found an amazing number of famous scholars who are also some of the best teachers, most generous people I have ever met.

[/quote]
Are they caring and generous enough to teach introductory sections to undergraduates -- like at Wellesley -- or do they leave that chore to their grad students?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Schools like Penn steal away faculty from schools like Wellesley all the time

[/quote]
This is true, but part of their appeal is that universities like Penn allow faculty to spend less time on undergraduate teaching, and more time on graduate-level teaching and research. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Visit the schools, and decide for yourself.

[/quote]
Agreed.</p>

<p>In WSJ feeder school survey, Wellesley is ranked #15 and Penn #16.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Columbiahopeful has given too many biased statements.</p>

<p>A difference of one position is certainly meaningless. However, Penn was penalized because its medical school, which is arguably one of the best in the country, was not included on the "top 5P list. This meant that the many excellent Penn students who went to Penn Med, instead of say Columbia, brought down the ranking.</p>

<p>Both Penn and Wellesley are terrific places and one can get a top education at either. With so many differences between them, one thing not to worry about is academic quality.</p>

<p>I was curious, so I checked.</p>

<p>As I suspected, more than half of the notable Penn women alumni listed in post # 25 did not receive their undergraduate degrees from Penn's College of Arts & Sciences.</p>

<p>One of them isn't even female.</p>

<p>"One of them isn't even female."</p>

<p>lol.....</p>

<p>Good old Hilary Putnam.</p>

<p>Quote:</p>

<p>"The School of Arts and Sciences gets 18% of that, which is about $300 million. Given that SAS has some 8,500 undergraduates and grad students, their per-student expenditures appear lower than $200 million for 2,300 undergrads at Wellesley. In fairness, some percentage of the $700 million budget for university overhead should be allocated to SAS, but I still suspect Wellesley will come out ahead. "</p>

<p>You neglect the fact that faculty and staff at Wellesley GET PAID, too. As much as you think those at Wellesley are more generous than at Penn, they're not so altrusitic as to do it for free. $205 million is the enitre operating budget, and that includes overhead. Check your stats.</p>

<p>Quote:</p>

<p>"Are they caring and generous enough to teach introductory sections to undergraduates -- like at Wellesley -- or do they leave that chore to their grad students?"</p>

<p>Yes, they are. If you look at the websites of the various academic departments, you'll see that a large number of the introductory and other undergraduate courses are taught by tenured and tenure-track faculty. In my own department, English, almost all of the tenure-track faculty teach two courses a semester, at least one of which is an undergraduate class. Sometimes both of them are. Most of the freshman seminars are also being offered by these faculty. And the faculty who aren't teaching two classes a semester are usually: (1) Working on a new project; (2) New and have been promised a reduced teaching load for their first semester; or (3) In charge of running some university program.</p>

<p>The benefit is clear. Undergraduates ARE being taught by faculty that are doing cutting-edge and important work, by the same faculty that teaches graduate students, something not available at a smaller college. My firends and I have all been taught by full professors in the scienes, the social sciences, and the humanities.</p>

<p>You seemes to assume that the answer to your question was a foregone conclusion. You were wrong.</p>

<p>Quote:</p>

<p>"This is true, but part of their appeal is that universities like Penn allow faculty to spend less time on undergraduate teaching, and more time on graduate-level teaching and research."</p>

<p>Nope. Simply not true. While they may allow them to have a reduced teaching load initially, it is fully expected that they will actually teach. At other schools it might be different, but at Penn it is the case.</p>

<p>They can recruit top faculty because at a place like Penn, they can (1) Actually teach graduate students; (2) Get more money; (3) Have colleagues that are at the very top of their fields, colleagues who are also probably their professional friends and acqaintences.</p>

<p>You act like professors teaching graduate students is a bad thing. It is amazing to be taught by the same professors who are teaching advanced graduate classes, especially when they tell you in your own class what they are doing in their graduate classes, when you have excellentgraduate students to share ideas with.</p>

<p>And research? I think it's great that at a school like Penn, I can talk to my professors about the work they are currently doing, when they talk in class about the book they are writing, when they actively ask for your ideas about their work, and allow you to collaborate. I participate in a seminar run everyweek by one of my professors, in which some of the most famous scholars working in the field come to present their work. It is intimate, fun, intense, and open to everyone, and lots of people (professors, graduate students, undergradustes) attend.</p>

<p>The reason Penn can do this without having the teaching suffer is that the departments are LARGER than those at a small LAC, so there are plenty of tenure-track faculty to go around.</p>