Please discourage starting non-profits, etc.

Parents Forum
21

@lookingforward Not sure I agree that colleges don’t encourage this false resume-building. I do give them credit for sometimes seeing right through kids who are clearly spit-balling their way through high school. Although I believe they can be much more explicit in stating that they want kids who are excelling at being HS students, not adults. Starting businesses, and non-profits, and volunteering for 20 hours a week are ADULT aspirations, and not at all typical teenager aspirations.

But everyone in each HS knows exactly who the insincere kids are. Every student knows. Teacher. GC. Coach. Maintenance personnel. Everyone. Yet…those same kids still manage to make it to one elite school every year.

So, through a continuous failure to detect what to many seems very obvious, they are encouraging it.

How can colleges better detect these self-serving youth? Well that would take some work, wouldn’t it? But within five minutes of simple questioning a reasonable adult can tell the difference between a kid who is doing things for the right reasons vs. not. So, if a college is zeroing in on kids based on their perceived high levels of service… I think some extra digging is called for. I think it would be worth their time. Absolutely there are sincere teens out there who feel compelled to help others with every spare moment they have. But they are the strong minority. And those kids who are doing all of those things who are NOT sincere…they do far more harm than good. And they are doing this because they believe that colleges value it. That is harmful to our community because it usually isn’t paired with a respect for those who are being helped.

I would argue that doing a better job at discouraging insincere volunteerism is in the college’s own self interest. Given how hard marketing staffs work (and how much money they spend) protecting their brand, and their being fully cognizant of how local students’ selection of colleges impacts other students’ selections, colleges would benefit from doing a better job of incentivizing proper and sincere philanthropic efforts by teenagers.

Our HS’s has a perfect example of this in 2019. Two kids. Both star athletes. #1 is headed to a NESCAC school to play a helmet sport (full pay). Not the greatest student, but is one busy kid with all of his church-affiliated mission trips, elderly-neighbor house clean up days, meals-on-wheels…all that.

Kid #2 was also a recruited athlete for a different non-helmet sport, and I described his sled hockey exploits in my earlier post. He elected to not pursue his sport as he is an exceptional student but had zero interest in the schools which pursued him.

He is attending a large private university many states away on a full merit scholarship because one of the parents of a teammate noticed how special this kid is and this parent happens to be the ex-head-of-admissions at this large private uni;. Not a coincidence. .

The real moral of the story is that kid #1 is not a nice person. Despite his resume, he refers to folks he ostensibly is helping as ‘those people.’ He failed to show up for his meal-on-wheels duties (which means an elderly neighbor goes without lunch), and got ‘fired’ from the program. During his volunteer shifts for reading to five year olds at the library, he told them to play while he read his phone (librarians kicked him out, too). Does this kid fool anyone who knows him? No. Did he fool the very elite NEACAC school? Well, I hope so because I would hate to think they would want a kid like that on campus. The impact of this is that ZERO other kids from our HS applied to that school this year (generally 5 to 10 do each year). The college that kid #2 is headed to? Opposite thing happened this year. They are both high profile kids, being athletes, so everyone knew about their college aspirations. Plus kid #1 told everyone who would listen.

Will these app numbers change in a few years? Probably…as the memory of those two kids fade. But, maybe not. Considering the 50,000,000,000 emails my S20 is getting right now to apply to various colleges, despite his expressing no interest in almost all of them, colleges appear to highly value applications. So this NESCAC school will lose, I would guess, 50 apps over the next few years. Just guessing. Or worse, only get apps from next year’s no-so-nice students? Think a phone call or two to those who run these programs wouldn’t be worth their time? I think so. Could colleges possibly do this for every applicant? Of course not. I tutored this kid in math, so I know his grades. He is substantially below this NESCAC’s school’s stats. He clearly got a boost, besides his ahtletic abilities, by claiming to be ‘ ‘Father Theresa.’

My kid is no angel. He does the bare minimum in terms of volunteering, but when he does help out, it is sincere. He walked out of an admissions presentation for a college we flew to visit because the video clearly suggested that the school was likely filled with the kid #1 types. Maybe that college does an excellent job of sifting the wheat from the chafe. I really don’t know. Maybe that marketing message is the most effective one for attracting all of the super-volunteering kids who are indeed sincere. I really don’t know. That college’s stats certainly suggest they are doing just fine without my advice. But they lost my kid within 20 minutes. I am sure they will survive.

Strong students absolutely get the message that there are five other equally strong students vying for the same spot they want. Their SAT’s and GPA’s can only get so high. Once they get to high school, if they hadn’t already played a sport or have developed art or music skills, it is too late to start and excel. So…what can they do? Colleges need to do a better job of telling such students what they should and should not do, both explicitly and by at least trying to sift out the kid #1’s.

Maybe my example was a rare failure. I sure hope so.

22

You’re kidding, right? Colleges have a long, long history of admitting athletes - especially those that play revenue producing sports - who are barely literate and sometimes even outright criminals. And if those athletes are performing, the schools will not just ignore the athlete’s ongoing criminal behavior, they will engage in active cover ups or other crimes to keep the athlete playing. The idea that a college would give a half a hoot whether their star athlete skipped out on meals on wheels is pretty funny.

http://www.espn.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/12710233/what-hunting-ground-shows-jameis-winston-campus-culture

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/baylor/2017/01/27/new-baylor-lawsuit-describes-show-em-good-time-culture-cites-52-rapes-football-players-4-years

https://nypost.com/2017/08/08/why-a-college-football-coach-sought-out-a-rapist-for-his-team/

https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/tom-archdeacon-steubenville-offender-gets-second-chance-central-state/FdHHkpFheNnTIFHvfMMTLP/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/scores-of-college-athletes-who-faced-felony-charges-get-second-chance-1488459601

23

I don’t think colleges say that a million hours of service is necessary for admission. Just because people assume that it is doesn’t make it true. You really think a full pay athlete got in because his application included reading to kids? I’m not sure how you know what was in his app or how much his parents are paying, but even if that was included I don’t think it’s a tip.

Most kids who start businesses and nonprofits aren’t insincere. They’re just misguided. I disagree that teens aren’t interested in volunteering on their own. We raised our kids to contribute to our community so by high school it was a way of life. But if teens from your school are getting accepted to elite colleges you think they aren’t worthy of it isn’t the college that dropped the ball. People at your school (guidance counselor, teachers) had to write them letters of rec. If there were any red flags it was up to them to let the colleges know.

24

Agreed. Our church started the youth groups doing local volunteer/mission work in 1st grade. I volunteered myself starting in 9th grade and continued right on through so definitely a part of life for our family. For our D, volunteering and giving back was a normal way of life. Her HS had the same values. She actually picked it over a more “prestigious” HS option specifically because it was in an impoverished area of town and students could walk across the stress and help within the community instead of having to be bused somewhere else.

25

@milee30 My point is not that athletes get a pass on bad behavior. My point is that this kid broadcasted that his fake volunteerism helped him, along with his athleticism, to gain acceptance to a school he never would have. A five minute conversation with him by someone at the school, who had his list of efforts, would have uncovered it. This same school sends reps to our HA every year, trying to build apps. Well, now that won’t work at all because the college’s brand is shredded, at least for a while. Perhaps the recruiting coach told this kid to become Mr. Rogers from his junior year. Don’t know. But I do know that a minimal effort would have uncovered this issue. They didn’t bother. Now they have damaged their brand. And also have this kid, who hopefully will outgrow his current attitudes, for four years. They have also encouraged every kid who has tendencies like his to be fake volunteers.

I suspect his GC wrote one of those ‘neutral’ Letters. But I don’t know. All I know is that this kid felt encouraged to do these things to obtain admission to that college.

26

I think the kids is flat our wrong about what got him into college. He has no way of knowing that and my bet is that millee30 is correct that coaches just care if he’ll be an asset to the team.

Agreed though that if he’s spouting his mouth, it could be a real turn off to students in the pipeline that would have considered that school otherwise.

27

And my point is that not only do athletes get a pass on bad behavior, the power of the athletic department in most colleges is so strong that athletes don’t need to fake volunteerism or even the ability to read to be admitted. Or, as the recent Varsity Blues scandal showed, maybe you don’t even really need to be an athlete just as long as the people with the power in the athletic department will vouch for you.

If you want to get outraged about something, it shouldn’t be at kids who are misguidedly duplicating the efforts of existing 501c3s or even the jerks who are faking their goodness - it should be the outsized importance of athletics in our college system.

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MODERATOR’S NOTE: OK, please move on since this is not a debate site.

29

@momofsenior1 Agreed, parents should be the ones encouraging volunteerism. But it should be because of the good that it does, not to get acceptance to any college.

My s20 has seen enough of that in his HS, and it repels him. He said he’d go to online college before he would surround himself with people like that. Those kids may not have become that way had they not felt it was important for college apps. They could have started with the right intentions, then got caught up in a cycle of doing this, and then that, and then this, and that. Because they lost track of what the effort is for. There is always another kid who is doing more… so they continue in the race.
A majority of kids? No. A majority of kids do a terrible job like my #1 above? Definitely not. Do a lot of these kids feel good about their efforts primarily because of the good they’ve done? Or because they now have 10 things for their 10 slots in the common app?

Stick some electrodes on these kids for a lie detector test and I think we would be disappointed in the results.

And I don’t care, at all, about those kids, but I do care about the efforts they are only pseudo-participating in. It is wrong. Just as wrong as non profit board members who participate only because of their resumes and never say a word in meetings or even show up.

30

Maybe your kid shouldn’t be so judgmental of other kids. Unless he knows them, and their situations, very, very well he has no idea why they’re involved in the activities that they are.

It sounds like you’re resentful that some kids are going to elite schools and you don’t think your kid has much of a chance because colleges didn’t spell out for you what they wanted. Plenty of real kids get accepted every year so some families are figuring it out on their own. Your family’s time is better spent finding a great fit for your son. Making assumptions about what top colleges want based on one arrogant sounding 17-year-old isn’t what they want. If you think kids are going to forego applying to elite schools because they accepted one not-so-nice teen I think your son is tossing away an opportunity. I don’t believe that will happen.

31

“Agreed, parents should be the ones encouraging volunteerism. But it should be because of the good that it does, not to get acceptance to any college.”

Can’t the same be said of clubs, ECs, leadership roles, even which classes students take? Some do it out of genuine interest but many do it to pad the application.

32

@doschicos I’m with you. There are very few large organizations we donate to anymore. One look at how much the top folks in the organization take home for pay is enough for me to decide I don’t care to subsidize that. I like to put my money to better use. We almost always choose local smaller organizations at this point in our lives. I also like to support fundraisers of all sorts at school.

This isn’t the same as supporting students starting their own organizations though. To me it would depend upon whether it filled a niche/gap or was just a show. My own lads organized/held benefit dinners for a specific non-profit we like as their graduation service project. They didn’t need to start their own. They just had to find one that fit their desires. It wasn’t difficult to do.

33

My one child was the beneficiary of a college scholarship fund that went defunct in the memory of a child who died of leukemia. One of the purposes of the fund was to keep the child’s name going. I know because I personally spoke to the mother and mover of this nonprofit. But in doing this solo, it really was what doomed it. It takes a lot to keep something like that going in perpetuity. Better to work it in with some established organization commemorates those who keep it going. But putting together that fund was also therapy for the grieving family.

I cannot say these nonprofits are a bad way for anyone to spend time, money, resources. Absolutely, they are good, good, good. But other than serving as an outlet for someone’s passions, they are often short lived and do not meet the wide audience that established and larger nonprofits addressing the same issues do.

Too many of these kids are doing these things too much for the immediate splash and hope for college admissions chances enhancement. Even Broadway has taken notice. Anyone seen “Dear Evan Hanson ? “.

34

I would usually say this to my daughter. If you have to commit to something you have no interest in or become someone you’re not, then the school isn’t worth it. Credentials should speak for themselves. Plus, I’m not paying $250k for a bachelors degree anyway.

35

I respectfully disagree with the notion that you don’t give to a charity whose senior leadership is well paid.

My own community is filled with well meaning, small organizations which have either no paid staff, or poorly paid staff and guess what- they don’t scale, they don’t incorporate best practices into what they do, they frequently break the law (unintentionally) because they don’t have proper audits and controls or even a competent HR person who can advise them on the advisability of paying payroll taxes (it’s not optional), etc. They raise money which can’t be tracked because they can’t afford to pay for the right tracking systems (there are several now) or for people who know how to use them. They don’t issue the appropriate tax forms for large donations and they frequently cannot get grants from larger foundations because their internal controls are a mess.

So no, I’m not throwing good money after bad. It’s lovely and charming to believe that these small organizations do more than the big, well established, sophisticated ones, but that’s naive. The CEO of the Metropolitan Museum or Boston Museum of Fine Arts makes more money than the Executive Director of your local historical society for a lot of reasons… but mostly because the talented folks with enough experience to competently run an organization with millions and millions of objects and a complex footprint and a billion dollar endowment- well, that talent costs money. And if this is true in the art world, so much more so than everywhere else.

There’s a local charity in my town which raises money for a particular type of cancer. I’m the curmudgeon who asked to see the list of grants they made over the last few years (they declined) and then decided not to give anymore even though it’s a very popular cause for walkathons and bake sales and whatnot.

Well, they are about to get audited (I don’t know what triggered it) and I heard from someone who has been close to their finances that they’ve given a couple of grants worth $150K or so to various labs and universities for “cancer research”.

Sorry. $150K is not curing cancer anytime soon, and to have a (poorly paid) executive director, and an events manager, and a head of donor development on the payroll, all for the sake of what- half a million dollars in research funds over ten years- boy, what a waste of communal resources. Nobody is curing cancer, the money isn’t meaningful in the grand scheme of things, the amount of paperwork generated to keep this organization running is crazy (and they aren’t compliant anyway).

People like to feel good about where their dollars are going, but is there anyone on the planet that thinks that their $50 is actually curing cancer when it’s going to an organization which has no scale and no infrastructure- and doesn’t even have anyone on staff who has enough scientific training to vet where their grants are going? Nobody on staff has even taken college level chemistry or bio, and my neighbors think this is the team that’s going to cure a complex, hard to diagnose and usually fatal cancer when some of the best minds in the world haven’t cracked it yet?

Sorry. Small, not up to scale, no expertise- the fact that the ED is underpaid is not a virtue, and is usually a sign that the organization has shaky finances.

36

" small organizations which have either no paid staff, or poorly paid staff "

“The CEO of the Metropolitan Museum or Boston Museum of Fine Arts makes more money than the Executive Director of your local historical society for a lot of reasons”

Actually, the museum world is coming under major scrutiny and criticism lately for disparity in pay. People talk about CEOs but these well funded museums (and other nonprofits) pay their heads BIG $$$ and most of their staff peanuts.

Of course with local charities, just like big ones, you have to be wise and aware on how well they are managed. Ask the smart questions. But the ones I give to I know 98 cents on the dollar is going directly into work making an impact.

37

Yes, I contribute to local charities. I was a local charity once and thank all my friends , family, neighbors and community for their help. There were also many I also thank who gave contributions in our name to the American Cancer Society, Lymphoma/Leukemia groups , all the big names. Do realize that those contributions generate a card to the stricken family and not a dime in help. Exception being Make a Wish and other direct help groups.

I prefer my dollars to go directly to the need and would prefer to contribute to such organizations. I agree that one has to check out whatever the cause is, but I’ve given money to many grass roots , community collections with direct short term goals. Never mind whether the money is deductible or not. I guess the school band might be stealing some of the contributions instead of using it all for air fare for some performance, and maybe my neighbor isn’t giving all the dollars she’s collecting for the family who’s kid needs that bone marrow transplant , but I believe enough of it is. I’ll contribute to the non profits local high school kids start too, if the cause hits the right notes, seems to be doing the right things and/or if so know/like the kid.

But I do not think it’s a great way to try to create a hook for college most of the time. I would discourage my kid from doing it if that was his only motivation. But not if it was truly from the heart and something he wants to do.

38

When my mom died we had donations directed directly to her local cancer center and/or directly to a research hospital doing ongoing research that was near and dear to her heart. (Giver’s choice - she gave to both. We called each directly to get the address, etc.) There’s no reason one has to go through the big names.

In mom’s case she learned to avoid the biggies after giving to St Jude and forever after getting weekly requests for more money. They’ve spent more than she gave them trying to get more. Not so with the places she had me donate to post death. Kids get helped at both of those too (as well as adults).

I agree with @cptofthehouse regarding school and other local donations. Perhaps the band director or language class isn’t spending all the money exactly as I’d want, but they do a great job giving the kids experiences. The folks battling cancer or similar might have to pay their electric bill instead of a medical bill - or maybe they want an ice cream treat during a lull in the stress. I’m ok with that. I don’t need to fund high salaries or fancy whatever. Other people can do that if they prefer.

39

Back to the reasons that kids think that they need to start a non-profit, publish three peer-reviewed articles, or solve world hunger, is here around you on College Confidential. Many many students come to CC to see what the profile of a “successful” applicants for an “Elite” college looks like. They also do so on other social media, like Reddit, but College Confidential is likely the primary source.

So students (or parents) post profiles that are great, or often too good to be true, and people here tell them whether they have a chance or not. A quick perusal through the “Chance Me” threads would be enough to convince any casual reader that a list of accomplishments the length of one’s arm is required to get into an “elite” college, not to mention that these, and other, threads will convince many a sophomore that not getting into an “elite” college is a fate worse than death.

Since most of these students and parents who read the “Chance Me” threads are looking for a Secret Recipe for acceptance, they will do their absolute best to copy the actions of the kids who are given the best chances at getting into the “elite” colleges of their choice.

So if Joey has a GPA of 3.95, and ACT of 36, and has started a non-profit to help the homeless cats in his county, and he is told by the helpful CC community that he has a decent chance at Duke, at least 274 other kids who read that will assume that High GPA + High ACT + Starting Nonprofit = high chances at a Duke acceptance.

You can post 1,000 times explaining that there is no such thing as a “Secret Recipe”, but new thread after new thread are started, asking “what GPA/SAT/Extracurriculars do I need to get into Yale/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame/etc.?”

Because “starting a non-profit” is a repeated theme among posters who are given high chances of getting into “elite” schools, increasing numbers of kids are doing this (or pretending to do so).

Also, in all honesty, it is often easier to start a non-profit to help people than to engage in the tedious, repetitive, thankless job of actually providing the services that the non-profit is supposed to cover. Starting a non-profit for keeping old people company is a lot easier than spending 8 hours a week sitting with these old people, and helping them with their day-to-day issues.

40

I’ve done a fair amount of pro bono work for very small start-up non-profits, and there are a couple of consistent issues.
First, with non-profits started by well meaning HS students, there’s a problem with sustainability-as in, the founder gets into college, ends up living a distance from home and is busier that s/he ever imagined…well there’s no time for the non-profit. So what happens to it? Do Mom and Dad take over? Or is there some sort of succession plan in place? Generally, M&D want nothing to do with it, and there is no succession plan; these are one man shops run on a shoe string. Which lead to …
Second, is a proper accounting done of all money received? There are all sorts of reporting requirements, and again, who has the time to do all this after starting college?
It can be a real mess, especially if significant amounts of money are collected and not properly accounted for.
Obviously, established well-funded charities have the resources to address these issues(as well as the myriad personnel issues that come with running a bureaucracy), but I can understand the reluctance of some to contribute to massive organizations. Maybe using Charity Navigator or similar will alleviate some concerns.
But having seen the scattershot way funds are collected/disbursed, it’s important to remember how difficult it is to actually run a well-functioning charity, and in most cases most HS students just aren’t up to it.